Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 5:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"We need this (expansion) to meet our current and future needs," he said. I am thankful that churches are growing in numbers, but does that always mean they have to grow their buildings too? $9mil could go a long way to helping others who don't sit in your big church building on Sunday. Why is it always about what "we need" and want?

Posted by squid on October 22, 2008 at 6:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hooray for Beltway. That church does ALOT of community outreach, it touches people's lives in ways most people never hear about. It is a giving church. Today's services for Sgt Fernandez and the way that church has reached out to his family are but one example.

And no, I'm not a memeber there.

Posted by Tumbleweed on October 22, 2008 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Does this mean the number of Christians in Abilene are increasing or does this mean Beltway has the best entertainment and is pulling those with itching ears away from other congregations?

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

Or, could it be the congregations that are dwindling are described in this passage?

James 3:16
For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

Posted by Scottie on October 22, 2008 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ranchero.. you're thankful that churches are growing in numbers, but you don't expect the churches to add-on to their buildings? You're suggesting that since they are growing... they should take out a $9mil loan and give the money away? That makes good sense.

Posted by campbellve on October 22, 2008 at 8:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

NINE MILLION DOLLAR LOAN?
Proverbs 22:7
The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

Posted by bulldog2 on October 22, 2008 at 8:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I find it funny that when there is a story about religion or money, posters come out of the wood work to complain about it. Shut up already.

Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Scottie, if a church like Beltway is doing everything they can to use what they have and they still need room, then go for it, build, build, build. I guess there is nothing wrong in asking 20% of the members(statistics show)to give more during these economically trying times, so that the other 80% can come and enjoy the comforts of a pretty building.

Posted by campbellve on October 22, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

YAH SHUT UP! haha

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on October 22, 2008 at 9:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow Ranchero, for a second there your 20% to 80% comparison had me confused for the Obama tax plan. 80% of America is going to profit from stealing from the other 20% but it's all legal because Socialist #1 has stamped his Obamessiahianic stamp on it. Congratulations!

Posted by ihaveanopinion on October 22, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am soley impressed that their giving can keep up with a a 9 mil loan. Our church can barely keep the staff paid

Posted by ZDub on October 22, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sounds like Beltway needs to look into Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University teachings out there. Pay as you go Beltway, loans are bad!!! As someone pointed out above...the borrower is slave to the lender!

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'd love to know where ranch & weed believe the congregation size limits should be set. What's the maximum size a church should be, fellas? 50?...100?..500?....1,000? If you're attending church for the right reasons, it shouldn't matter how many people are in the pews beside you.

I've been to Billy Graham revivals held in football stadiums with 60,000 people and seen folks pour into the aisles when the invitation is offered. Obviously the size of the crowd was not a hinderance to God touching their hearts.
btw, I was raised in a small country church where 90 folks attending was a big crowd. That church is just as endearing to me as the larger church I now attend.

As to weed quoting 2 Timothy, your assumption in regards to church growth assumes that Beltway is not teaching sound doctrine. That's not true.
Perhaps you need to look at their growth another way. Maybe the "other churches" you mentioned are losing members because they're the ones not teaching sound doctrine, and folks are moving to where it is being taught.

As for the James 3:16 verse, it sounds to me like you're the one that is expressing envious feelings toward a growing church. Envy will eat you from the inside out.

Posted by Tumbleweed on October 22, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Texas Twister, you missed my comments completely, the 2 Timothy is for those leaving a congregation to get something they are not getting. James 3 is for the same thing. If a church is not growing from evangelism it's dead. If your congregation is growing because of programs, hours, services, power point, music that's uplifting, and being hip, then that's the wrong kind of growth and is doomed to fail. However, doors open and or shut by God can't be opened or closed by man.

Posted by JoeBob on October 22, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is insane, but not suprising. I've never trusted big churches like these, mine only has 2 people really, the priest and someone that does some administration work. Oh well, let the protestants build up their entertainment wing and giant plasma screens.

Posted by agentb on October 22, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Someone's got to maintain the social club...

Posted by Tumbleweed on October 22, 2008 at 12:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JoeBob big churches can feel cold and unfamiliar, I felt like when I visited T.D. Jakes place in Dallas. I felt like cattle being herded in, around and out.

I do have a question for you; did Mary have other children after Jesus?

Posted by officerx on October 22, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jeez....it's their church, let them build it if they can. If you are not a member of the (which I am not) it is really none of your or my business what they build. I think there are a heck of lot more serious issues in the world than a church building.

Posted by campbellve on October 22, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

officer-x
well, your right, it's not any part of my business, except for the fact its in the newspaper and they went on the record for this story. therefore, i think i can comment on this subject.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No, weed....I didn't "miss" your comments. Your inference was that Beltway is growing because they're attracting people who have itching ears and desire "entertainment" over sound doctrine. That's patently wrong. Sound doctrine is the basis for worship there.

Please explain to me how powerpoint, uplifting music (ie: making a joyful noise), hours that are convenient for the congregation (I don't remember seeing the verse where God set up the Sunday service time schedule), numerous services that allow for more opportunities of worship, programs that teach youth ministry, marriage counseling, and a more....how do you interpret these things as being indicative of not being in God's will? Why does using a computer program that puts the scripture and message points on a screen so they can be easily read define a church, in your eyes, as not teaching sound doctrine?
You're sounding incredibly pharasitical in your judgement of Beltway and other large churches.

And I'll pose my question again, since you haven't answered it yet:
What's the maximum size a church should be, fellas? 50?...100?..500?....1,000?

Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TexasTwister, consider this, how many did men did Jesus call, minister to deeply and mentor during his 3 years of public ministry? I find it hard to believe that a "sheppard" of 3000 sheep could be close enough to each of them to meet their needs, nor would the 2999 others feel close to their sheppard. I don't really care about the size of the church, but I do wonder about the use of it's resources for the good of mankind.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I could just as easily say that a small church that is growing because new folks decided to leave a large church for a smaller congregation for reasons such as "We just got tired of that many people around us", or "they didn't sing the songs we were used to" or "We like the comfort of a small church", by your definition, have "itching ears" and moved for the wrong reasons.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How many did He feed with 5 loaves and 2 fishes?

The pastor's most important responsibilty is to "feed the flock"...to pass on God's word to His people as He has laid it on the pastor's heart. His time is to be spent in the study of God's word. The pastor can't meet the needs of every individual in the church. Deacons, elders, other spiritual leaders in the church are biblically called to minister to the flock and nurture them. That's why God instructed the first churches to ordain them, and why they're so important to any congregation.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

" I don't really care about the size of the church, but I do wonder about the use of it's resources for the good of mankind."

I'm not arguing with you...like I said, I was raised and baptised in a small country church that I love to this day, and always will.

But since we're discussing size, let me ask you this. Would you feel better if we dispersed these 3,000 folks to create 10 churches with 300 members? Would they, individually, be able to staff, buy and furnish the equipment and vehicles used in the Mobile Medical and Mobile Dentistry Ministry? Would they, individually, be able to fund the Jesus Crew Ministries that target the hard-core unreachables? I could go on, but I think you get my point.
I'm not, in any way, belittling small churches and the services and ministries they provide that are just as important as those I just listed. I just want you to understand that God uses the resources in both large and small churches in various ways to do His work.

Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TexasTwister, to your last post (3:17), I say YES, that would be great to have 10 churches of 300 committed, accountable, giving indivdiuals rather than a mass of observers! The para-ministries you mentioned are not fully supported by Beltway and they are effective because they are not associated with just one church.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why do you continue to infer that any large church is a "mass of observers"? That's ridiculous, unproven, and frankly insulting to God. By your statements, you're putting restrictions on what God can do and how He has to do it. It's offensive, close-minded, legalistic and ungodly.

Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TexasTwister... I've been there, I know!

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've been there, too....and my experiences are totally unlike yours. Perhaps you get out of it what you put in. Sounds like you went in with some pre-conceived notions anyway.

Posted by TennesseeDavis on October 22, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It never ceases to amaze me the people that get on these forums to throw in their 2 cents when a story about a church or Christians is the topic.

My prayer, and I'm undoubtedly sure the members of Beltway Park's prayer too, is that this will glorify the Lord.

Posted by Ranchero on October 22, 2008 at 4:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't tell you what my experiences are or were, so please don't jump to conclusions. Beltway is not the "perfect church" and guess what... there aren't any on this earth.

Posted by campbellve on October 22, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

your right Ranchero, there are no perfect churches on this earth. however, i heard uranus has the best most perfect church ever.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 22, 2008 at 4:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gee...sorry...I just assumed since you were making sarcastic putdowns of Beltway and large churches in general that your feelings were less than endearing toward that church.

And I never said anything about a "perfect church"...not sure where that came from. Perfection has only existed once, and it wasn't a church.

Posted by ropers40 on October 22, 2008 at 5:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If Churches are building for the good of the community and not for the status then there is no problem, but when a church such as the Crystal Cathedral spends millions to build what they have built its nothing more than decadence.
There is one problem that I do see, the traffic situation out there is already bad on Sundays, is this not going to possibly make it worse.

Posted by rsjz4 on October 22, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I wonder how they got a $9 million loan in the middle of a credit crunch with the banks tightening down???

Posted by holyman on October 23, 2008 at 8:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe you guys that are skeptics should setup a meeting with the Pastor face to face instead of just talking and making dumb remarks.....I believe that would be best

Posted by Zoey on October 23, 2008 at 9:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think if they want to expand then go for it but I do think that a 9mil loan is a bit much. I don't go to that church, I have gone 1 time a long time ago and I thought it was a social club and a fashion contest. The service was ok but it is too crowded.

Posted by justice4her on October 23, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey Ranchero, Have you read about Pentecost where 3000 men where added to the church in one day? Let's not equate small numbers with spirituality. Jesus trained 12 not to remain 12 but to go out and reach the masses. And some of you need to know the difference between doctrine and methodology. Paul said I will become all things to all people in order to reach them. Does anyone commenting claim to know the heart of Beltway's pastoral staff? If not, save the judgements for yourself. Unless you are an active, praying member of that church...you have no right to comment on what they vote to do. I live in a small town close to Abilene but I have visited Beltway and was blessed. I know some young families who attend there and have grown tremendously under this pastor's leadership and they are a very mission minded church. Know the facts before you make shallow, unintelligent comments.

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Justice4her, and my guess would be that they met in homes or outdoors, not a big building. BTW, I'm sure ARN welcomes all comments to their articles (within reason). Thanks!

Posted by TexasTwister on October 23, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You're right, ranch...they probably didn't meet in 100,000 square foot buildings....there probably weren't many of those around back then. So the 5,000 that came to hear Him preach at Bethsaida sat on a hillside. Would you be okay if a church had 5,000 members as long as they sat in the grass to hear the word of God?

Of course, you probably get to church by car and not on foot or by donkey like they did. I'm guessing your pastor uses a microphone and sound system....more than likely they didn't have those either. And do you read the scriptures out of a printed bible? Hmmm...nope...didn't have those back then either.

My question still stands....what do you consider the maximum member limit a church should have? You're the one wanting to put limitations on what God can do, so please, tell us how big is too big?

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hi, my name is Joshua Carroll. I have been a member of Beltway Park since 2001, and I have invested myself in its ministries because I believe God is using this church to build His Kingdom in huge ways.

On the subject of the new expansion: the 9 mil. Beltway will be spending on this project is a steal for the amount of building it will buy. It will not be glamorous or beautiful. It will look like a big metal barn, just like our current facility.

Furthermore, we are NOT building for ourselves. We are building for the sake of those who turn away at the site of our crowded building every week and miss the opportunity to hear the gospel. We are building because, even cramped for space, we have baptized 85 here in our facility in the 41 Sundays of 2008, and we believe we will baptize even more if we expand. We are building for the sake of the people here in Abilene and around the world that Beltway reaches for Christ every year who never attend or send money to Beltway but are affected eternally by our members.

Each and every year for the past 10 years Beltway Park has increased the percentage of our total income that is given away to local and global missions. As of 2008, we are giving away 20 cents out of every single dollar that comes in before paying anything else, and that number will go up to 21% in 2009, 22% in 2010, etc. That means that if we miraculously received a 10 million dollar check today, 2 million of it would go to help people outside of Beltway Park with both physical and spiritual needs before we pay for this building.

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To those of you who would imply that David McQueen's preaching is simply tickling ears, I would invite you to take a few minutes to listen to a sermon (beltway.org). He is bold with his words, faithful to scripture, and unafraid to offend. Furthermore, I would recommend checking your heart if you are so quick to cast judgment on a man you do not know. I do know him personally, and I can vouch for his heart along with the other elders.

As far as the worship goes, I am a member of the worship team, and I can tell you first hand that is our weekly prayer that we would not merely entertain, but that we would lead people into the presence of God so that He can convict them of sins, heal broken hearts, challenge people to acts of service, and grow them in the image of Son. If our music is entertaining, it is because we strive to bring God our first-fruits, our very best. Anything less is an unworthy offering.

And to any who would imply that Beltway is simply on a mission to steal members from other churches, I challenge you to find another church that does more to promote unity among the larger body of Christ in the Big Country. We regularly participate in, help organize, and promote events that involve any Christian church in this area who would be involved. Almost every week David McQueen asks our congregation "How many churches are there in Abilene?" and everyone responds unanimously: "one." We encourage our visitors to plug-in and join whatever church the Lord would lead them to, even if it's not Beltway Park.

And as for the question regarding how big we will let our church get, the answer is easy: as big as it takes. Over half of the people in Taylor county are unchurched, and a larger percentage do not know Jesus personally. As long as there are people to reach, we will continue to do whatever we can to reach them. We will combat the "alone in a crowd" effect by encouraging and helping people get involved in our Life Groups where they can build meaningful relationships with other Christians, not by refusing to grow.

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TexasTwister, you are so funny... you know that the size of church doesn't, God can use 2 or 2002. What we tend to see hear in America is the investment in great physical structures in the name of "meeting the needs of others", when in reality we have lost our focus on people and the true need for investment there. I think Christ was lead simpler life and with Him as my example, I find very little use for big churches. I will keep my car though. Shalom!

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, and ZDub, we offer Financial Peace University as a class here. Even Dave Ramsey doesn't suggest you should save until you can afford to buy a house. He suggests that you should buy modestly, get the lowest fixed-rate loan you can get, and work to pay it off early. Beltway's spot on with that plan.

We are currently debt-free because we believe so strongly in that plan and paid of the loan we took out for our current building early. We have secured a 9 million dollar loan (at a ridiculously low interest rate), but we will not take out that much of a loan. We will only take out as much as we need to get construction started. Our members are giving generously above our tithes to keep us from having any excess debt, and we will work to pay this loan off in 3 years or less.

Posted by TexasTwister on October 23, 2008 at 1:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well said, Joshua....thank you.

Posted by HoursAway on October 23, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow. I attend the Potter's House in Dallas Tumbleweed, and at first I visited knowing I wouldn't like it because it would be too big, and impersonal. I grew up in smaller congregations and thought that was the only place I would feel comfortable, but T.D. Jakes' church proved that misconception wrong. I loved how friendly everyone was, how I welcomed I felt, the music and the message were also, and always are incredible. As far as Beltway, it is their member's money. I'm sure they do not go into these decisions lightly, or without deep prayer and even a vote. If they can raise this amount of money, and even if they can't - how is this a concern of yours? This is the choice of this church and their congregation.
I for one cannot express how their hospitality and warmness helped during these past two weeks with Marcus' death. They were more than helpful and loaned their facility without thinking twice. Not many pastors voluntarily hand over their pulpit either but they did for Pastor Brian. I'm glad they are finding success in their ministry.

Posted by ElJaws on October 23, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't click on this story the other day because I knew just minutes after it was put online the usual round of suspects would spew forth a negative slant to it with their bitter comments. Sure enough, there they are. And the worst thing about it is they have no idea what they're doing is un-Christian. God bless the real Christians who debated this subject with a civil tongue.

Posted by curlyandi24 on October 23, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

9.5 Million is a lot of money, but let's consider the math behind the loan compared to the 3000 person congregation size over a proposed 3 year term. It's not as crazy as some would make it out to be.
9,500,000/3= 3,166,666/2000(considering not everyone will give nor should they feel obligated to)=1,583 per year per person/12 months in a year= $132 a month.I spend more than that on my cable and cell phone bill.
Seems a bit more reasonable, considering some people are blessed to give more than that and some, like me, will give up some 'necessities' to make way for a place for the children of the Big Country to worship.

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 3:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Curly, thanks for doing the math on this, just as a side note, according to the Barna Group, Ltd only 23% of born again, evangelicals tithe to their local church. So, using that figure and yours, we end up with 3,166,666/690=$4589.37 per yr, per person or $382.45 per month.

Posted by JoeBob on October 23, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Do they really need to spend $9 million on expanding? What the heck are they building or buying? I do not trust big churches and never will, there is just too much potential for someone to be in it for the money. But leave it Bush supporters to blow it all on making the church all pretty, fancy and with all the electronic doo-dads that go bling bling in your face during service.

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JoeBob, if you (or anybody else) is interested in finding out exactly what the money will be spent on, a video of the business meeting where all the details were laid out and the heart behind it was expressed is available here:

http://www.beltwaymedia.org/sermons/w...

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There's also an FAQ page at:

http://www.beltway.org/generations/faq

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Josh, are you a paid employee/staff member of BPBC?

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am indeed. I'm, among other things, the web guy. No secret there. My name's at the bottom of Beltway.org.

I'm not, however, making any of the statements that I'm making because that's what I'm paid to do. In fact, I don't think my boss even knows I'm having this discussion. On the contrary, I began working here in '04 because I wanted to spend as much time as possible supporting the mission of this church.

As a staff member, though, I'm privy to a lot of discussions most people never get to see. I've watched our elders pray through this thing for a long time. I've heard the stories of people we've helped behind the scenes, and I've been here in the middle of the week when our benevolence ministry was giving away furniture, food, cars, and money to people in need. Most people never get to see that, and I've never heard our leadership brag about it. That is a testimony to their humility in leadership.

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 5:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Josh, you are very loyal to your church/employer, so forgive me for saying this, its understandable that, unlike the average BPBC member, you perhaps have a different motivation for saying what you have.

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Then I would invite any other Beltway Park members to post here whether or not what I have said is true. The vote to approve this project was passed by 99.9% of all voters, so I suspect that I am not alone.

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 23, 2008 at 6:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am a Beltway Park member...I went to the business meeting, and they gave a very detailed summary of all that the money was going to be spent on. I was one of the 99.9% that voted FOR the expansion project. I have only been a member for a little over a year, but in that year I have seen so many awesome things that Beltway has done in the community. They are always saying that there is ONE church in Abilene. I have heard the pastor say many times that there is still a lot people in the big country that don't go to any church at all, and I am going to vote FOR anything that is going to bring more people to church to hear about Jesus!

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 6:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't doubt your truthfullness; I want to see the company I work for expand too, more money for me I hope. I saw the results of the vote... impressive, hard to imagine you could get 99% of people of a group to agree on anything these days. So was that 99% of the 3000 people who attend BPBC or just 99% of those who voted? What about the 1% who disagreed or those who didn't cast a vote?

Posted by koeth on October 23, 2008 at 7:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Before being moved to Germany, I was a member of Beltway Park for three years, and I have to say, knowing the hearts of the people and leadership at the church, and knowing their desire to know Jesus and be biblical, I am saddened that their hearts and motives for building a new addition is being questioned.
During the three years I attended Beltway, I was blessed more and grew more in my spiritual walk than I have in the previous 13 years of knowing Jesus. I was challenged in my walk and learned how to truly live life with people. My husband and I went through some difficult things while in Abilene, and not only did our lifegroup stand by us and help us but the elders and leadership reached out and hurt with us. This is a church that loves Jesus and now in Germany I only long for people who have the hearts of Christ and the love for people that the people at Beltway had.
I too, came from a background of small churches and a more traditional setting and told myself husband the first time attending Beltway I knew I would hate it because it was too big, but instead I found a church accepting of all people and a place where the Holy Spirit was present during worship and in the words of Pastor David. I remember being so impressed by how bold in his words, unwaivering in his faith, passionate about his people and how Biblical pastor David was, and after meeting him and hearing his heart in smaller settings, I only grew more confident in his heart for Jesus and his heart for all people.
And being a good friend of Joshua Carroll and walking through life with him and his family, I can vouch for his heart for the people and Jesus as well in saying that he is not just speaking up for Beltway simply because of being a paid staff member.
I would really encourage those of you questioning the spending or budget, whether you attend there or have never been there to check out the links Josh posted. And if you have further questions I encourage you to talk to and reach out to the members and staff at Beltway to hear their true hearts. I think you will be amazed. I understand that everyone wants something different in a church and that God leads different people to different places, but I still encourage people to unite in the different congregations and love Jesus together.

Posted by infinivert on October 23, 2008 at 7:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Everyone who has an interest in Beltway Park, member or not, was invited to vote. People had 2 chances to go to the meeting and multiple ways to hand in those votes over the course of a week. I'm not sure of the final number of votes cast, but it was significant. I will say that the number of "no" votes was astonishingly small, and everyone who voted no also agreed to support the program should the vote pass.

And thanks koeth. We love and miss you guys.

Posted by Ranchero on October 23, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think anyone has said that BPBC is a bad place, the posters just seem to be questioning the need to spend so much on something that will some day burn up. I believe the wonderful pastors and members of Beltway can continue to be that way in their current facilities because it is NOT the building that is the "church".

Posted by swampduck119 on October 23, 2008 at 8:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ranchero - I think you've spent 99.9% of your time picking at what other people say just for the sake of picking at what other people say. If you are truly this concerned about the doings of Beltway - as I would judge by the space you have committed to comment on their doings - why would you not investigate beyond ARN's article ? Why do I even ask?! ... By gosh you go Ranchero and pick away, whatever it is.

Posted by koeth on October 23, 2008 at 8:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I entirely agree that it is NOT the building that makes the church, but I think it's still necessary to be able to minister during church and to provide a place for activities and people to come when there isn't anywhere else available. I can say from having a child in the nursery, that it was overbooked and more space is needed. And working in Kid's Park and seeing more and more kids attending, a bigger area is needed. And when people are having to stand in the back of the sanctuary or having to leave because no seats are available, space is needed. This is something that hasn't been taken lightly, and more space to minister means more space to reach people. That's not to say many activities and Life Groups don't meet or minister other places. And they will continue to do that, but in terms of the ability to offer more classes on Sunday and more space to minister to the young children who are the future of the church, there needs to be more. I can't wait to see what those who minister at Beltway will be able to do with more space on Sunday's and throughout the week. But you're right, the church is a body of believers, and is anywhere those believers are. But that doesn't mean there doesn't need to be resources for those believers either.

Posted by Embo83 on October 23, 2008 at 10:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You know as far not wanting to attend big churches because you feel "alone in a crowd"...I can understand that. Because I once felt that way about Beltway. I felt lost and like I was a spectator in a crowd of thousands. But then I plugged myself in and became part of a life group that became my second family. I also began helping with Kids' park. Then I became a member. Thats when I no longer felt lost in a sea of people. You can't just sit by the way side and expect something to happen.

Secondly...you are there to worship God, and that should be the sole purpose in your going to church. That is also when I realized that I wasn't alone. We are all one family...brothers and sisters in Christ all there to worship our Father TOGETHER! It's an amazing feeling!

Posted by Tomasius on October 23, 2008 at 10:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My name is Thomas and I'm about to give all of you a point of view not yet contributed to this discussion. I'm a senior in high school, and I have grown up in the kids ministry and youth ministry of Beltway Park. I was baptized in this church. I have grown up in this church. This place is my home, and the congregation is my second family. And I'm not about to sit here and watch a bunch of ignorant debaters insult people they don't even know. First of all, I have seen this church grow from the early 90's from the small congregation that met in the chapel to the large congregation that meets in the worship center today. Every step of the way, though the outward appearance overall grew, the metaphorical funnel got deeper, and multitudes of life groups were added (which are the key component to being a regular attender at Beltway). I was there when we did the first building campaign (albeit I was in elementary school) and I can tell you this for certain: the leadership and elders of beltway are all about investing into the kingdom of God, and I can tell you for dang sure they're not gonna waste the resources God chooses to put into their hands. I was there as we prayed weekly over the area of cow-pasture where the soon to be new building would be built. I was there the first sunday that we held services in said building. They along with the church body have prayed long and hard about whether this is the right decision, and as we have all heard, the decision was a near-unanimous agreement to go ahead with the building plan. If anyone would like to argue the motives behind the building, shut up and watch the sermons David preached about the motives behind the building campaign. And if you think he's tickling ears, watch the sermon "Like A Camel Through A Needle's Eye".
Second of all, I work at the Kids' Club after school program where the Beltway facilities are turned humbly over to the near 200 elementary school aged kids who ravage the grounds every day. And because I work there, let me say this: I have never been a part of something more awesome and important than the job I have now. The reason is because the paid staff of the church have such a heart for normal, needy children to be loved on, to have a safe place to go, to have nice facilities, and most of all to be safe and to have a prime opportunity to be shown what the unconditional love of Jesus looks like that they are willing to offer (a better term would be surrender) Beltway's facilities every day. And even if this wasn't a church we're talking about, I think that this it's worth it.

Posted by Tomasius on October 23, 2008 at 10:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

But, this IS a church, and right now, things get a little crazy at the Kid's Club - particularly due to the fact that in the winter season when you can't exactly keep 120 K-3rd graders cooped up in one room upstairs (that's literally our situation right now), they have to play games in the church foyer, which is about as hectic, rowdy, and unorderly as a political riot and as obnoxiously loud as a McCain rally. If you didn't know, the main component of the new building is a gym, which will be a HUGE relief to the kids' club and will allow us to bring in even more kids for ministry.
Third of all, I have grown up in the youth and kids' ministry of Beltway. I cannot stress to you enough how important relevant youth ministry is to teens these days. Though our intent in our youth services isn't to create a "concert" feel, we feel that in worshiping God we should not give any less than our best, so if our best is using lights and loud music to express our loud and untame affections for Jesus, then let's do it. And, what do you know, a huge byproduct to this is that non-churchgoing teens are implicitly drawn to this experience, and are reached for the name of Jesus Christ. What's wrong with that? I have seen hundreds of my peers reached for the sake of the gospel because of Beltway's youth ministry. If 4 percent of my generation is going to be bible believing Christians when we're older, then let's do whatever it takes to show people the Love that brings fullness of life. I also am a part of the worship team and I know the hearts of the key leaders of our music-ministry. It's not to put on a show, in fact that is our worst fear and our greatest frustration. It's to glorify the name of Jesus, and to do it powerfully, beautifully, and loudly - we want to connect with God in a real way, and by encountering God ourselves, lead the rest of the congregation to have that same encounter. Beltway and it's leaders wants nothing more than to see God's Kingdom advanced in the big country, and I know that if they felt God calling them to demolish & sell the facilities and hold services on a grass field outside with nothing else, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

Posted by Nickip on October 23, 2008 at 11:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am a member of Beltway Park. I have been attending this church for almost four years. When I came to this church I was beyond a mess. I was completely broken. The LORD used the leadership and members of this congregation to bring freedom, healing, and love into my life. It is through this congregation that God has given me a home for the holidays when I had no where to go, someone to sit with me in some of my darkest and weakest moments, and someone to speak life and hope over me. This building campaign is in NO way about a building. It is so that we as a church can reach out and be the heart of Christ to a hundred, two hundred, two thousand, more people just like me who have different stories but are just as desperate for the HOPE and HEALING of Jesus. They are crying out for the Kingdom of Heaven to come to this Earth. The leadership of the church is truly after the heart of the Lord. They want to be the hands, feet and mouth of Jesus to every person they come in contact with. If you claim to be a follower of Christ I dont know how you can disagree with that because is that not the very thing we are called to?

Posted by all4him on October 24, 2008 at 1:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I just want to say that God has used the body of believers at Beltway Park to bring freedom and healing in my life as well. I have been a member at Beltway Park for three years and I can tell you that almost everyone I know at Beltway has had a similar experience. The problems may have been different, but the results have all been the same--hope, healing and freedom because of the love of Jesus Christ that is being demonstrated through His followers who worship together at Beltway Park. I'd also like to say that as for myself and I know, many others who attend Beltway, we are not there as observers or just there to be entertained. We are there to worship God and to participate with each other in equipping ourselves for service in God's kingdom because we love Him and are grateful for what He has done in our lives. Oh, I'm sure there's probably someone who's there to be seen, or entertained, or some other less than noble reason, but it's a pretty dangerous place to come if you're not interested in having God get involved in your life. As for the new building, I don't think I can say it better than my fellow members. Everyone I know supports it because we don't want people leaving because there wasn't a place to sit or because the nursery was too crowded--we want a place for the boys and girls club kids who are there after school every day. We want there to be room for the teenagers to meet on a weeknight while we're having a Celebrate Recovery Meeting for people who are struggling with all kinds of hurts, habits and hang-ups, and another group who are praying for those who need physical healing. We know our leaders and we know their hearts--this is not about fancy buildings or big egos or empire building--that is so far from who our leaders are--they are men who above all else desire to follow God and have spent countless hours seeking Him in prayer before making this decision.

Posted by apav on October 24, 2008 at 2:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a member of Beltway, I can honestly say the topic of expansion was not discussed lightly. Four to five months ago, one of the leaders of Beltway told my husband and me about this possible expansion. At this point, it was not discussed in detail, but rather he asked my husband and me to be in prayer over the growth. I don't know how long the elders and leaders have been praying over the expansion, but to know they have had people in prayer for months really helps me to know it was not something that just happened over night. It helps me to know that Beltway is not a church of rash decision makers. If they feel like God is leading them in an area, they don't just move; they pray over it and seek the best way to get it done.

I have been a part of churches that do things in vain whether it is build or decorate or renovate. They do not seek after the will of God before doing things. They just feel like the growth or change is needed, and makes the change without seeking. I can honestly say that we are to be seekers of God's will as well as stewards of our resources. If God tells us to build, we are to build, but before we do so, we seek. Beltway has done the praying and seeking.

We see God calling Noah to build a giant ark in the Bible and Noah thought God was crazy. He questioned God on it and God confirmed His desire for Noah to build. God told Noah exactly how to build that ark from how long to how tall to what wood to use. How many people questioned what Noah was doing? Everyone thought he was crazy. No one believed that this ark was of the will of God and that there would be a flood. It took rain for those people to believe and realize that Noah was not crazy, but they didn't get a second chance. Had Noah not listened, what would have happened to him and where would we be today?

Posted by apav on October 24, 2008 at 2:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Not everyone will understand God's will before it is complete. That is generally the case for anything God calls us to. When it comes to something like doubling the size of your current building, many will not understand until after if it built and being used. I don't even fully understand this large expansion, but I don't doubt it. I have prayed over it and I know that it is of God. I know that he wants to use this building for so much. He wants more people to be reached through this expansion. By this, I am not saying that God needs a building. God does not need anything. He does not need me, but He has chosen to use me. The same with Beltway and its building…God has chosen to use it.

Yes, 9 million seems like a lot of money to borrow, but as was stated earlier in another post, this loan is at an uncommonly low interest rate and Beltway will do everything it can to have it paid off in three years. If Beltway can, the loan will be paid off sooner and it will only take out as much as is needed. This money is covering everything from cost of materials, labor, and furnishings. If you break it down to the amount per square foot, it is a little over $100.00. Try to build a home (interior materials, exterior materials, labor and furnishings) for this cost or less. Unless you build it entirely by yourself, I doubt you will get a better rate.

So, if you doubt the growth and expansion of this a building or anything God is calling someone to, I ask that you pray and seek God’s will before you cast judgment. I pray and will continue to pray that this expansion will never be in vain, that the will of God will be sought after for decades and generations to come and that because of the growth, more people will come to know the Lord the way we are supposed to know Him. He is in this expansion and it is only through His desire that Beltway is expanding.

Posted by steeda78 on October 24, 2008 at 8:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

THEY NEED TO START HELPING THE MEMBERS OF THEIR OWN CHYRCH WITH THAT MONEY. I WENT TO BELTWAY FOR YEARS AND KNEW SEVERAL FAMILIES STRUGLING THERE AND THE CHURCH KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THAT. THAT CHURCH NEEDS TO GET MORE INVOLVED WITH ITS MEMBER AND QUIT WORRYING ABOUT GETTING BIGGER. TAKE THAT MONEY AND INVEST IN YOUR MEMBERS....

Posted by steeda78 on October 24, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Its not GODS decision to expand APAV its the churches...If the church wanted to they can take alot of that moey and give to needy families but they are more concerned with bringing more people in their church to bring in more money to build again later on. GODS WILL....quite with that...Not Gods will, not Gods decision, not gods plan.......ITS THE CHURCHES......

Posted by steeda78 on October 24, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

And the last thing....ITS NOT BELTWAY THAT CHANGES YOUR LIFE ITS YOUR DECISIONS, AND ANY CHURCH CAN HAVE THE SAME EFEECT AS WHAT YOU HAD AT BELTWAY. YOU GUYS ARE RIDICULOUS. You guys need to realize that the church has it's flock and that Beltway cant even keep up with it's own members much less know whats going on in their lifes, and its the churches responsibility to know these things and to help, and Beltway doesnt. I dare you to have the pastor name the members in the church or even half. Its all about money at Beltway and thats why alot of churches in Abilene are disgusted with Beltway. It's not an opinion its a fact. After I left Bletway i went to several other churches to find the right one and all of them had the same views when i said i attended Beltway. You guys are know as the Church who does not care or even know whats going on in your own church.

Posted by koeth on October 24, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would encourage you, again to look at the budget of Beltway. As of last you 20% of all of Beltway's incoming funds went to helping the community and people around the world. Each year, Beltway is expanding that by one 1% (21% in 2009, 22% in 2010 etc. etc.) I'm sorry if you did have that experience at Beltway. From my experience, when I was personally struggling, when I reached out to my life Group, elders and other members of the church about my struggles, I was greeted with open arms and helped in more ways than I could have ever imagined.
I do believe it is God's decision to build and I believe God has given the people of and leadership of BP discernment in what his will and plans are in order to grow HIS Kingdom.
I also encourage other members of Beltway who have struggled or been reached out to and helped by other members there to post here so people can see their true heart. It breaks my own heart that there would be people who believe Beltway is all about money. If you are one of those, I also encourage you to go to Beltway.org and spend some time watching the business meeting, as well as the past sermons David has done on finances. Please, search for their true heart.

Posted by HoursAway on October 24, 2008 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

steeda78 - I'd don't go to Beltway, but it sounds like I would NEVER go to ANY of the churches you visited if they feel the same way as you do. For one church to dislike or talk about another is pathetic. I don't understand why other people (Christian's especially) and congregations can't celebrate with them instead of trying to bring them down. If anything, WHY say anything at all?

Posted by rlc00b on October 24, 2008 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not a member of Beltway, but I have to ask if the church didn't know that the families were struggling was it because the families didn't make their struggles known to the church? You can make it known to your friends all day long that you are having financial difficulties but if you're wanting a hand up then you've got to go to the people who handle the money. From what you've stated steeda it doesn't sound like that happened. Maybe it did, but from what you said it sounds like it didn't. I attend a good sized church and I certainly don't expect the pastor, elders, deacons, etc to know what's going on in my life unless I specifically come to them with a need.

Posted by justice4her on October 24, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Steeda78: You need to read Acts 6:1-7 and Ephesians 4:11-13. The pastor's role is not to know the names of every member of the church, but to preach and teach his flock which clearly he does. The church is a body made up of many parts and the Lord gives each believer gifts in which THEY are to meet needs. You must not have been actively involved in a life group which is how they have community and closeness. For people who say the church is too big, I wonder how they'll get along in heaven! But for anyone to claim to be a believer and get on and say slanderous and negative comments about a pastor and church like you have had better rethink things. God takes that very seriously- He has a lot to say about gossip in His word.
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matt 7:2
"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my father who is in heaven" Matt 7:21

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 24, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Great comments "HoursAway, rlc00b, and justice4her"...I can't understand why people (CHRISTIANS!!!) use the ARN as a place to blast other churches and other believers...Steeda did you ever go to the pastor with your concerns as we are told to in Matthew? Or do you just gossip around with other Christians? I think if you have a problem with the pastor or the leadership at Beltway, then the best thing you can do is to go to them with your concerns...at least that is what the Bible tells us to do...

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 24, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Also Steeda...I would be really careful before I would start saying whether things are or aren't "God's Will or God's plan." Unless you have spent months praying about this (as the elders of the church did), and you have no doubt that you heard the Lord (as the elders did)...I will agree with you on one thing though...they are concerned with bringing more people into the church...not for the money, as you said, but so that more people can hear the good news about Jesus...

Posted by UHeardMe on October 24, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Steeda: my comment is that if you went to Beltway for years and knew of families that needed help, why wouldn't you bring it to someone's attention? The church staff can't pry into every family situation, but if you know of a need, you can go to the right people and discreetly try to help fill that need. That is what church members do for each other. It's not what they expect their pastoral staff to somehow know about each member. The staff can work on filling needs after it has been brought to their attention.

Small groups/Life groups are the best way to meet people in larger churches. It helps you get to know other people and you also get to know those people well enough to see their needs, celebrate their joys, pray over their concerns and all the things that churches do together- but in a smaller group of memebers. Get involved by going to classes (not just the big worship services) and help out, which gets you plugged in to your church. You can really start to feel at home in a big church if you make the effort.

Posted by Ranchero on October 24, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've noticed a common theme in some of the latest posters, members of Beltway, you've made mention of "small groups" and how important they are... I guess my question would be... why attend a BIG church if it's a SMALL group you want? Just wondering.

Posted by apav on October 24, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have been to many churches before. I have been to small churches and have been to large ones. Small or large, it does not matter. What matters is that you have a close-knit group of believers that will lift you up and hold you accountable. Even in a smaller church, you can get lost without this group. It is essential to ones Christian walk.

That is where a small group comes in to play. If you do not plug yourself in, then you will get lost. You will not have anyone to turn to when you need prayer or help. Beltway is a large church, but it is the most "at home" I have ever felt in a church. I know that there are many people there that care and will do anything they can to make sure prayers are answered and needs are met.

So, small or large, it is about community. It is about getting plugged in and finding a group you connect with. If you are comfortable in a smaller church, fantastic. Just make sure you have people to walk beside and hold you accountable. Same goes for a large church otherwise you will get lost in the crowd and people will not know when you are in a time of need.

Posted by steeda78 on October 24, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Its called free will and God lets you have free will. Kinda like everyone saying that if people pray the right president will be the one elected...not true its called peoples opinion and will to vote for whomever they want. I dont talk bad about Beltway i use to be a member I talk bad about the fact that the money could be put to better use to the struggling families of Beltway. To me it is a waste of money to do that that but of course that is just my OPINION. I am not trying to p--- anyone off just saying again the money should be used for more worthwhile things like helping families or kids with no clothes or people with no food or homeless with no shelter.

Posted by steeda78 on October 24, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BELTWAYMEMBER

I am all for people hearing the word of god and big churches so people quit labeling me as someone who hates Beltway....My opinion is the money and where it is going, but that doesnt matter because I have nothing to do with how they spend their money. If I was an elder I would say lets reach out to our members to help them and their families through the Holidays to help families who's parents lost their jobs provide christmas for the kids or meals for thanksgiving....

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 24, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Steeda, I never meant to say that you "hated Beltway" (if that is how it came across then I am sorry)...All I was trying to say is that if you have a big enough problem with how the church is spending the money, then you should go to the church elders about it...If it is not a big enough problem for you to go to them with it, then it probably isnt a big enough problem for you to go on and on in this comment forum about...We are told as Christians that if we have a problem with someone, then we need to go to that person one on one, and then if it doesnt get resolved to take another person with us, and then if it still doesnt get resolved then we need to go to the church body...

Also, there is an insinuation in your comments that because they are building this building (and spending $9 million) that they are not "reaching out" to their members, or "helping families whose parents lost their jobs" or "providing Christmas for the kids or meals for thanksgiving." I would ask that you look into all of the different ministries that Beltway IS doing with the money that is given to the church. If you inspect the budget, 1/5 of the entire budget goes directly to missions and outreach in the community and in the world. So, before you insinuate that they are not helping people I would ask you to to see if that is a true statement. (I know you said that you had friends that were @ Beltway, and you said their needs weren't getting met...did they let anyone @ the Church know about this? The church can't help if they have no idea of the need...)

I would ask everyone that is posting on here to check what they are saying before we just spew out comments. Make sure, as Christians, that what we are saying against another church or other Christians is actually a correct statement. We, as the Church (not Beltway, the Church as a whole), need to be careful when we are throwing accusations at other churches or other Christians, because many times we do this out of ignorance, and many times we are wrong, and that definitely does not help our overall goal...reaching people for Jesus...

Posted by UHeardMe on October 24, 2008 at 2:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ranchero: about big church, small groups- I used to go to a church on the west coast that would make any large church here in Abilene look small. Even there it was possible to feel like a real part of it, but that feeling of belonging in such a large place came after joining a small group. Which was the first place that I made actual friendships there.

When I first moved to Texas I joined a small church. I can tell you that church was my family, and still is. I loved everything about that church, and we enjoyed it so much, except when my kids became teenagers they didn't have as much to get involved in there. The youth group there was nice, but it was very small with not a lot of youth-type activities (like projects, game nights, mission trips, camps, etc.). That is why our family considered getting back into a larger church.

The decision was about a place that would allow us to feel at home and provide opportunities for each of our family members to really get involved. The small group that we joined is once again, the first place that we made real friends. The small group is a lot more than the casual "hi" that you get from people on Sunday mornings. These people KNOW you... and they still love you anyway! They are our church family now, and we feel really blessed to be part of a larger church that has so many opportunities for each of us to participate in.

Posted by HoursAway on October 24, 2008 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

steeda, disgust is pretty close to hate in my book.

Posted by robertwp on October 24, 2008 at 3:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I hear that they put on a hell of a show out there!

If they add a buffet and video poker then I might consider going out there with the rest of humanity.

Posted by bmw_pickup on October 24, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Beltway grew so much because the people at Southside Baptist found out about what happened with the preacher and another woman (not his wife) and everyone flocked to Beltway. If they wanted to reach more people they would of built their church in the center of Abilene, not on the outskirts.

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 24, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bmw-I will say what I have said on here a couple of times...we dont need to be on here attacking other Christians and churches, there is no need to say anything about Southside...Beltway was built on the outskirts of town by Pioneer Drive Baptist Church in the 80's because there was (and there is still) a TON of southward growth in Abilene. Currently, Abilene's main area of growth is to the South. When the church was built there, it was built on a small little area in the middle of some fields. As the church began to grow, they bought some of the fields around it when they went on the market. So, Beltway ended up owning the land around it. When they decided to build they decided that it would just be smart to build on the property that they already own, instead of buying different property...

I am not sure that just because the church is located where it is you can decide if they are trying to reach people or not. BUT Abilene is growing so much in the Southern part of town, so it would make sense to build a church there (however Beltway is not building the church right now, they are adding on to the current facility)

Posted by swampduck119 on October 24, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

RE: Ranchero's question - why attend a big church if it's a small group you want? Please allow me to recommend an excellent book for your reading - title is The Second Reformation (reshaping the church for the 21st century) quote on front cover is "Those who want to be Christians in earnest and who profess the gospel with hand and mouth should sign their names and meet alone in a house somewhere to pray, to read, to baptize, to receive the sacrament, and to do other Christian works." (Martin Luther) Author of this book is William A. Beckham. Publisher is TOUCH publications. This book is "an informed, sustained argument for the New Testament pattern of large-group celebration wed to small-group discipleship." I truly hope that you find useful insights in this book, and I apologize for my impatience expressed in my first posting.

Posted by Ranchero on October 24, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you swampduck, I just ordered the book now from amazon.com. I must say that this forum has been a bit different from others like it. While there have been your usual bashers, others have shared their faith with great passion and insight, I am deeply moved. Thank you all!

Posted by infinivert on October 25, 2008 at 12:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, I haven't checked this thread in a while...

@ Ranchero: I am floored. And I've got to say I completely agree with you. Thank you to all who have shared a heart for unity based in truth and mutual love for each other and Christ.

@ robertwp: I will keep your comment quiet. If our elders thought a buffet and video poker might actually get you to come and give Jesus a chance, they might be tempted to install a mini-casino in the new building. Ha!

@ bmw-pickup: I am one of those who came to Beltway from South Side. That was an influx of newcomers for sure, especially given the smaller size of Beltway at the time. And the circumstances made it a painful move for all of us. However, we have been just a small percentage of the growth Beltway has seen.

For the record, South Side is still an awesome and thriving church. I know lots of folks who still go there, and we pray for them regularly. Some of my best friends recently chose South Side after visiting Beltway for some time, and we have encouraged them to plug in right where the Lord has put them.

@Steeda: It's totally OK for you to disagree about this issue. Nobody's offended that you have a different opinion. But I feel like maybe there's a deeper injury from your past that is causing some bitterness / anger now. I'm not sure what happened in your past at Beltway or elsewhere, but if you'd like to walk through it and find healing, we have people in place to help you do that. I offer Beltway's help because that's my church, but I know other churches in this area have great people and programs as well. Wherever you go, if you're dealing with bitterness, please find someone to walk you through it. It will eat you alive if you let it. And if I've misinterpreted the situation, pelase forgive me. I'll be praying for you either way.

Posted by Ranchero on October 25, 2008 at 5:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, I have to be totally honest here, my family and I attended Beltway for over 6 years. We were deeply involved in childern's ministry and I was a small group leader. Heck, my wife and would clean-up the construction debris from the new building on weekends to help move the process along. Over time things and people changed and I felt I was being pushed out of everything I was doing. I will always be an advocate for fiscal responsibility within the church and the family as I believe the scriptures demand it and I'm a maverick :). Beltway is wonderful place with many loving and faithful servants of the Lord. I have seen the hand of God move amongst the Christians there, not because its Beltway, but because HE IS GOD. My prayer is that God will continue to visit His creation in and through the ministry of Beltway Park Baptist Church, the church sitting between 2 cow pastures in a no-name place in the world.

Posted by nate79605 on October 25, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It seems to me that there are people who want to limit the work of God just like the pharisees wanted to limit the work of Christ. That 9 mil that Beltway will spend on the building will help them be able to get billions to the world that needs it. With cars, computers, washers, and dryers, and anything else people need. I, too, have seen first hand what the benevolence fund has helped. It doesn't just help people that are members. People who never attend church period come to Beltway and get help. People who don't know Jesus. So the 9 mil is nothing compared to the money and other physical and spiritual blessing this new expansion will bring for our community and world. I used to feel the same way about larger churches as alot of you guys, but that changed when introduced to Beltway. You'd be surprised all the people Pastor David knows and is close to. I met him my first visit, and it evolved into a friendship. Who would have known getting to know the sheperd of a flock of 3,000 would be so easy! I have personally experienced spiritual growth from Beltway. In ways I never did in the small churches I grew up in. But with life groups and all the chances to volenteer at Beltway, spiritual growth is easy at a church the size of Beltway, when expanded, it will have even more ample oppurtinty to offer more spirtual growth for those who seek it. We can not say, as believers in Christ, that they have not heard from God to take out this 9 mil loan. We have not sat w/ them as they have prayed over months and months. We have not seeked the Lord in the way they have for this. To be a believer in Christ and to bash someone for doing what they hear the Lord tell them to do, sounds like Satan creeping in trying to cause division. If Beltway truly believes the Lord has told them to do this, for them not to would be rebelion, which is the sin of witchcraft. Would you, as a believer, not take out the very same loan if you and the elders and pastor of a church ALL heard from God to do so?

Posted by smh00a on October 25, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Until every person in Abilene has a place to sleep tonight...

...and a warm meal

...and a set of warm clothes

...and a few friends to love them

...and an opportunity to work with their hands

I don't want to hear one more story of another congregation "building bigger barns" -- saying nothing of $9 million ones. In fact, my stomach turns at the Beltway news when I think about the number of hurting people right under their noses and around the world, especially in today's economic climate.

As I recall, Jesus will not judge his people based on the number of bodies "ministered to" or the square footage of our church campuses or how many "Lord, Lords" we utter, but on how we treat the hungry, the imprisoned, the naked. In James, the writer describes "true religion" as how God's people care for widows and orphans. Amos told Israel that God's judgment was coming against it because they built stone buildings and vineyards and gave abundant grain and burnt offerings ... but disregarded the poor and oppressed.

I think about the number of non-profits and faith-based groups in Abilene who are working out on the margins of society, in the gutters, and in unglamorous ways -- and who scrape by for funds. I know of directors of ministries who take no salary so that those funds might be redirected to the people and projects who need it the most.

How far could $9.5 million go toward ending homelessness in Abilene?

The Beltway news is certainly not surprising, but it is shocking all the same. I love and have loved many people at Beltway, but this expansion is unacceptable. There, I said it. When 80% of a church's funds are put toward facilities and salaries, Jesus cries. He must be sobbing at this news.

Posted by smh00a on October 25, 2008 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Would a Beltway member (maybe Josh) be willing to cite a few ways these funds and the new facilities will be used as a tool for social justice (serving the poor, marginalized, etc) in Abilene?

As I see it (from the business meeting video), nearly every square foot of this facility benefits only Beltway members and visitors. (the Boys & Girls Club being the one exception)

Posted by infinivert on October 25, 2008 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@smh00a:

Regarding what you said about numbers of people and square footage, I agree with you, and I'm sure our elders would as well. That is and can never be the point.

As far as other ministries in Abilene who minister to the poor, oppressed, and homeless you should ask Mark Hewitt what he thinks about Beltway and how we contribute to The Mission.

Regarding the 80% of our funds that we do not expressly give away to other ministries, that money is still used to help people in our area and around the world. Speaking as a paid staff member, I can assure you that none of us are getting rich off of our salaries. I for one could make close to double my annual salary doing what I do elsewhere in West Texas, and as much as three times more in other parts of the country. But we do what we do right here because we feel this is where God has called us, and we see the lives that are changed as a result.

I do not believe that a building project that makes room for more seekers to hear the Gospel, provides better, safer facilities for children and teenagers to hang out and be loved-on during the week, and will as a result of Beltway's giving policy, raise a minimum of 2 million additional dollars to be given away (above and beyond what we give away out of our normal budget anyway) is unloving.

That said, I hear your struggle. And believe me when I say that it is our struggle as well. The heart behind this building is motivated by the testimonies of the people we have reached and the sight of those we see turn away for lack of space every week. Nobody's in this for any other reason. But I also know it is our heart to reach out even better than we do.

If you or someone you know has a God-sized vision to help the poor and needy in ways that are not already being done, come talk to our elders about how Beltway can help support that vision and get involved. There is no doubt that as our church expands, there will be more and more opportunities for new ministries to grow up there, and we're all about reaching more people.

If you know people who are going through financial crisis right now, tell them to call the church. Our benevolence ministry helps people with their finances every day.

I'm not sure how well that answered your question, but that's the best I've got for now. If you're really interested, Beltway's budget is available for anybody who's curious to come and look through.

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 25, 2008 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

great comment josh

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 25, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

smh00a

I wonder where you got the # that "80% of a church's funds are put toward facilities and salaries"...That is definitely not the case. That being said, the church does pay for facilities (although the current building is completely paid off, and the church currently has ZERO debt, they still have to pay for electricity/water etc...) AND the church does pay the staff salaries (although I dont think you can fault them on that) 80% of the budget absolutely does not JUST pay the facilities and the staff, most of that 80% (21% of Beltway's budget is given directly to missions/outreach in the community and the world) is used for ministries in the church that are trying to reach singles/youth/children/young adult/college/etc...that (to me atleast) does not seem like the church is using 80% of their budget to pay JUST for the facilities and staff...

Posted by agentb on October 25, 2008 at 4:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Josh - I've never thought it was a good idea to give Mr. Hewitt the full burden and responsibility of Abilene's poor. No one person or church can (or should) handle that.

Posted by infinivert on October 25, 2008 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@agentb:

Agreed. And I would say that he doesn't. He is just one great example of a person who has run with a ministry and made a huge difference in our city. There are many other ministries that help the poor and homeless: the food pantry, Angel Food ministries, the Salvation Army, and many of the churches individually in our city including Beltway just to name a few.

Posted by smh00a on October 25, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Josh - Thanks for your gracious response. You are a reminder to me that the people of Beltway are not my problem ... my problem is with religious systems that mimic the world's chasing after "more" -- more room, more money, more people, more power. As I'm sure you well know, ministry is much more than providing people a place to come ... we are to "go." Our posture is a sent people, not as those who pour the majority of our resources into facilities into which we hope lost people will somehow wander. In the West, the assumption that "if you build it, then they'll come" is increasingly diminished.

Jesus didn't tell the rich young ruler to sell all his possessions and then give the money to someone who is helping the poor ... he told him to give it away himself. I agree with agentb -- it is not enough to expect Hewett to do it all. A church that is not itself meeting the practical needs of the poor -- including being a family for those who have none -- isn't meeting the expectations of Jesus, in my opinion.

Beltwaymember - I get that stat because it's the reality in most megachurches -- that 75-80% of moneys given pay to maintain facilities, facilitate programs, pay ministers' salaries, and other "indirect" allocations. And someone above said that only 20% is immediately taken out to be given away. Imagine the utilities bills alone on 150,000 square feet of air-conditioned buildings? Given the suffering around the world, doesn't that seem excessive?

3 Questions:

1) Does $12 million worth of facilities (the current and future buildings' cost combined) widen or narrow the gap between Beltway Park and Abilene's poor?

2) George Barna predicts that by 2025, 70 percent of Christians will be living their faith outside of institutional, organized religion. It's already happening that way in places like Australia and parts of Europe, and the US is not far behind. How does this project fit into that reality?

3) On the business meeting video, David said over and over that the leadership looked at every alternative as the numbers increased, and concluded that increasing facilities was the only option. What about locating the bulk of the "ministry" of the church in the small groups, like Andy Stanley's NorthPoint Community Church in Atlanta has done? This would take the focus off the expensive, huge, ultimately unsustainable worship gatherings and put them in more intimate, neighborhood-based groups. It would lower the overhead for ministry, free up more money to give away, and basically allow space to never be a problem again. Churches all over America are figuring out that making "church" about one place and time is unsustainable, and they are seeking alternatives.

Posted by rampbrat on October 25, 2008 at 10:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've been a memeber of both small churches and larger churches. They both have their pros and cons. What's important is that the church helps you grow in God and to become more like Christ. I wish Beltway the best of luck in their new undertaking and pray that it will help them to minister to their members, the community and that it may glorify God.

Posted by infinivert on October 26, 2008 at 6:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

First of all, let me just say that I'm afraid I may have inadvertently made myself Beltway's unofficial spokesperson, and I'm certainly not. I only meant to defend the reputation of an effective ministry and its godly leaders.

With that in mind, please know that my statements here are my own.

@smh00a:

I appreciate the heart behind your statements. It was kind of funny reading some of what you said about taking church outside the four walls of the building, because that's the discussion we have here as staff and ministry leaders all the time. I whole-heartedly agree that we are to be a sent people, and that the role of pastors is to equip and send the saints. Right now I'm actually in on the development stages of a couple of new ministries that are intended to take ministry to places traditionally neglected by the church.

That said, I believe Beltway is a sending place and a sent people. We have people doing ministry in a multitude of ways across our city, state, nation, and world. Can we grow in those areas? Absolutely. And we intend to do so. Can we give more? Yep. And we will.

And while we agree that we must meet the people where they are, Barna's research indicates that the most effective evangelistic tool in the US is the local church. And while it does seem foolish to expect the lost to simply show up at your door, that's exactly what happens every week. Especially when we have ministries like Jesus Crew inviting people to church.

I'm in a crunch for time right now, but I'll respond to your specific questions later.

Posted by infinivert on October 26, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, here are my thoughts:

1) That's a tough question. As a guy who grew up less-than-privileged on Abilene's north side, I am keenly aware of the difficulty some people have with the thought of attending a huge church in the middle of "wealthy, white, Wylie" (my words from my teenage years). On the other hand we are intentional about doing things like shuttling African refugees and folks from rural areas like Albany in every week. I definitely don't think we're perfect, but we are making an effort to be welcoming and accommodating to anybody who would come. Some won't. But a lot of people are coming. More than we currently have seats for. If we don't build, we will absolutely alienate them. And to alienate the people God is bringing to us because we're afraid other people might think we're too big, rich, or whatever would be irresponsible.

2) If you think that the stat that says Christians are moving away from the church is a good thing, then I guess building a bigger church is a bad thing. If, on the other hand, you believe that we are to meet together as the early church did in the synagogue, as well as meeting in homes, then building a place where more people can and will be encouraged to meet makes perfect sense.

3) I'm not convinced that this project is "ultimately unsustainable." I mean, it will burn someda, just like everything else. But in the meantime, Beltway's growth contradicts what Barna has observed happening in the country at large, and we attribute that solely to the grace of God. We believe that God has led us to build because he is going to bring more and more people into the body, and we want to be ready to help them become fully-developing followers of Christ.

That said, we mimic a lot of what Andy Stanley's church does, and I'm intrigued by the model you're referencing. I'll look into that. Maybe we can implement it in some way!

Anyway, I think I should probably let this conversation end. It's not in my job description to be Beltway's PR guy, and I think I've said what needs to be said.

My goal is not to convince everyone that Beltway's the perfect church or anything. It's OK to disagree with Beltway on how we do things. But I hope that I've at least shed some light on some misunderstandings that tend to cause (usually unspoken) division between Beltway and other churches. We want to be a church that walks in unity with the rest of the body in this area.

Posted by fromme2u on October 26, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

They sent out a flyer to all of their members, urging to give more. The flyer listed all kinds of ways that you could give more to the church ex: not drinking tea or soft drinks at restraunts (drink water instead). etc. I find this a little disturbing as did the member who tithes substantially. This particular member loves the church, but it got him/her thinking!!!!

Posted by fromme2u on October 26, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Also, sorry but if all of you will read the bible..."No man has ever seen or heard God"

Posted by infinivert on October 26, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

@fromme2u:

What verse are you trying to quote?

Isaiah 64:4 -
Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.

Or maybe John 1:18 -
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Or 1 John 4:12 -
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

?

Non of those say that nobody has ever heard God. That would completely contradict the story of every single person of faith in the Bible. Abraham heard God and followed him to an unknown destination. Moses talked with God as a man talks with his friend. And the New Testament is full of stories of early Christians following the leading of the Holy Spirit to make all sorts of decisions.

Posted by robertwp on October 26, 2008 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"@ robertwp: I will keep your comment quiet. If our elders thought a buffet and video poker might actually get you to come and give Jesus a chance, they might be tempted to install a mini-casino in the new building. Ha!"

Is your entertainment barn the only place to give Jesus a chance? I personally prefer something that resembles a church instead of a dinner club. Good luck with all that!!

BTW, Didn't y'all offer a money back guarantee on a tithe a while back? Did I hear that wrong?

Posted by smh00a on October 26, 2008 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Josh - Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. I still disagree with Beltway on this move, but I don't for a minute doubt your fervor for sharing the gospel. And as I mentioned above, Beltway has directly impacted (positively) many great friends of mine through the years.

Regarding the Barna stat, I'm saying his predictions are a "good thing." Basically, we're already seeing folks all over the US coming to a deeper understanding of the function and nature of the church, bringing that back to their immediate neighborhoods and blocks. These are Bible-believing churches that meet in homes, coffee shops, parks, and intentional Christian communities. But the common stream is that they generally do not locate their ministry in a central property (building) or isolate their worship to a particular hour a week. In short, these folks see the difficulty and expense in maintaining the status quo as it relates to local churches, the successful of which are the megachurches pulling members from smaller churches. Plus they (admittedly, "we") are increasingly uncomfortable with "church" as a passive experience, with only a few experts allowed to speak and the majority (in Beltway's case, thousands) left in the pews staring at the front.

The main rationale, though, is mission ... a growing number of "unchurched" in America will remain just that. They distrust the institution known as religion and simply aren't signing on if it means falling lock step into line with that which they suspect is "up to something." They are suspect of anything seemingly "religious," and I think they are probably in decent company ... I vaguely remember Jesus coming up pretty hard against religious systems that bind and oppress and yoke their adherents unnecessarily. What most outsiders might be able to sign onto, however, are simple communities of faith living out Acts 2:37-42 in neighborhoods of big cities and small towns. (check out some of the most recent research here: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Pa...)

I'll get off my soap box...

You can see my biases here. =) Nothing but love for you, Josh, and your Beltway compadres. Blessings to you and your spiritual family there, and may God continue to lead you more into His perfect way and to those He misses most.

Peace,
An Abilene Transplant in Boston

Posted by Beltwaymember on October 26, 2008 at 10:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

fromme2u
I am one of those members that got the flier that you are talking about. It was not urging people to give more money. It was giving the members of the church (who voted 99.9% to approve this campaign) creative ideas on ways that they could give towards the building campaign. They were not sending out a postcard saying that the church was in great need of money and that the church members needed to quit "drinking tea or soft drinks at restaurants."