Posted by donny on October 9, 2008 at 5:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Fantastic. The darwinist have more faith than we Christians do.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 9, 2008 at 6:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Improbability does not equal Impossibility.
Yes, circumstantial evidence must be taken on faith.
I am here--Why?

Don't have to know.

Evolution seems more likely to me, but, Yes, I take that on faith.

Again, teach biology, but leave out supposition.

Nothing is lost for the student if only known facts are taught.

Sign me "An Evolutionist by Faith"

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 7:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

But, there be mules.

Posted by sauria on October 9, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well Mr. Allen, your parents conceived you without a lot of trouble, it happens every day....

Posted by erin1bstmom on October 9, 2008 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The only thing evolving is science itself. It contradicts itself one generation to the next. Compare the text books from say twenty years ago to today. Our kids are being taught differently on some theories then what we were taught. It just goes to show no matter how smart the man is, God is the only one who knows all the answers. Everything from our "color spectrum", to Pluto. It is constantly changing and the good book never does!

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Science progresses, faith does not. Remember the Dark Ages? Some people seem bent on creating another age of darkness like the historian Edward Gibbon once wrote about when described entire Easter Empire whose capital was Constantinople -

"In the revolution of ten centuries, not a single discovery was made to exalt the dignity or promoter the happiness of mankind. Not a single idea had been added to the speculative systems of antiquity. and a succession of patient disciples became in their turn the dogmatic teachers of the next servile generation."

Criticizing science knowledge because it changes and praising faith because of it's blind and deadly certainty is the work of fools. Dangerous and deadly fools.

Posted by donny on October 9, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jarhead the name fits.

Posted by ringeye on October 9, 2008 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Way to go David....It is amazing, as I have said before, that we continue to be pounded by all sorts of theories of how knats, elephants,wasps, monkeys, alligators, etc. etc. came into being not even to mention man himself. And, the most amazing thing about it is very simple...the great majority of folks in the US believe in God..Now how does that figure into those same folks being drenched with the theories of the unbelieving who wish to put the minority thinking as Fact?? Just cannot understand the mind of man, can you???

Posted by onesmallvoice on October 9, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

fact is, things (species, etc..)evolve, or change, over time. that does not mean that humans came from monkeys. the serpent 'evolved' after his go-round with Eve. because God made it so. why can't children be taught biology, with the fact that species change over time a given. they don't have to be taught the "THEORY OF EVOLUTION". just teach basic biology. leave that big controversy for the colleges, and homes. there is enough to be taught without having to force either theory upon students.

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Dismisses theory of evolution" is no match for even this short outline: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/in...

Posted by robertvp on October 9, 2008 at 12:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Evolution is nothing but the first sin, man taking credit to be God. It is the dumbest idea that has ever been proposed. Logic tells you that something cannot come from nothing. Unless a greater power is involved. Logic tells you that in the evolution theory, too many things would have to work at exactly the same time. The probablity would be beyond our comprehension.

BUT the Bible says it so clearly, "in the beginning GOD CREATED.....

Posted by stateofmind on October 9, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It takes a lot of help to believe there is no God only to be confronted with the proof of a creative God with every turn and opening of an eye. Look around you then go to God's word. No man could have written such a complexity of simplicity that has not been proven wrong for thousands of years; on the contrary all can be affirmed by recorded history. The simple fact the bible(God's word) has not deminished in publication but has grown year by year is no small wonder not to mention unbelievers have not been able to stamp it out or constrict it's flow. No man written article or book can claim the same.

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Look around you then go to God's word. No man could have written such a complexity of simplicity that has not been proven wrong for thousands of years; on the contrary all can be affirmed by recorded history." Just a lie. It has been proven wrong in thousands of ways. God didn't even get pi correct in the bible.

Genesis 1 states light was created on the first day and it was separated from darkness but the light producing objects like the stars were not created until the fourth day.

The infallible bible goes on to call herbs and trees meat.

One of my personal favorites out the hundreds of lies in the bible is Genesis (30:37-39)
"And the flocks conceived before the rods."
Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked, speckled, and spotted baby goats.

There is plenty more here: http://tinyurl.com/y9vuxt

The bible is not historical or factual and is not confirmed by any recorded history at all.

That millions buy it does nothing to prove anything at all about it's truth. If it did, Santa would be real.

Posted by dblairsmith81 on October 9, 2008 at 4:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jar Head: oh enlightened one, "the bible is not historical or factual and is not confirmed by any recorded history at all." Wow- have you read anything from the Bible directly or just articles about how the Bible is inaccurate?

To me the bible is what it is. Many argue about the illustrative aspect of the scriptures and whether or not they were meant to be viewed as literal or not. However, to take lines from the Old Testament (let alone the first book) and deduct from their apparent assertions that the entire bible is not historical or factual is a wholly inaccurate assumption for you to make.
I believe you let your own passion cloud your judgment. You've discounted your own assertions with that broad of a claim.

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"To me the bible is what it is." Well that just clears it all right up and makes the bible inerrant and totally authoritative. All bow.

The bible says nothing that is historical and confirmed by any other source. Even the accounts of Jesus' genealogy do not agree with each other. Fiction is not history.

Posted by Topheth on October 9, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jarhead - thank you for your comments, they are certainly a breath of fresh air! No matter how undeniable the facts, those who are blind by faith just can't see. I'm sad for those who feebly hang onto those ancient myths.

Posted by jesseusn on October 9, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think Lou Allen is an expert in biology. For one thing sexual reproduction is something that arrived quite late in the evolutionary calendar, perhaps 600 million years ago. Asexual reproduction was the only method for billions of years before that. And even today, many species do not require the sexes to meet. Many creatures in the sea separately release sperm and eggs into the water where they combine by chance. Many land plants depend on insects or the wind for fertilization. And most mammals don't have to rely on chance encounters to reproduce. They release phermones into the air or into their urine that can be detected and tracked by potential mates many miles away. It is not at all an "impossible possibility".

Posted by ipvicus on October 9, 2008 at 4:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not one physicist, biologist, astronomer, or any other kind of scientist on the planet will claim 100% certainty about any "Theory" for the creation of the world. Really though, that has nothing to do with the idiocy expressed in Mr. Allen's letter.

The Oct 2 letter he refers to mentions the clearly observable effects of evolution. That has nothing to do with theorizing the cause of life on this earth. Darwin made no connection in his Theory of Natural Selection between "Men and Apes" he merely published his observations of species in the Galapagos.

Any middle schooler can watch evolution with their own eyes in a petri dish. I know I did. I'm a Christian, but I'm not dumb enough to think the world is 5,000 years old just because some preacher says so. It certainly says nothing of the sort in the Bible.

Posted by JarHead on October 9, 2008 at 5:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Darwin made no connection in his Theory of Natural Selection between "Men and Apes" he merely published his observations of species in the Galapagos."

Not. http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/autho...

On apes: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2300

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 9, 2008 at 7:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Renoij states:
"Evolution is nothing but the first sin, man taking credit to be God"
No such animal, sorry.

"It is the dumbest idea that has ever been proposed"
Yet is supported by mountains of evidence Dolly Parton could hang-glide off of without fear of getting road rash.

"Logic tells you that something cannot come from nothing"
Yet your "bible" claims it did!

"Logic tells you that in the evolution theory, too many things would have to work at exactly the same time"
And your book claims some magick man waved a hand and POOF!

"BUT the Bible says it so clearly, "in the beginning GOD CREATED"
It states a lot of things that are patently impossible and sheer bunk.

Posted by stateofmind on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The man who says," there is no God," truth be known, lies in bed at night with cold sweats contemplating his destiny.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 10, 2008 at 6:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I sleep well.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 10, 2008 at 6:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course, I don't say "There is no god".

I say, "There is no proof either way."

Posted by kelpy on October 10, 2008 at 8:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

These cynical sarcastic oh-so-superior atheists and agnostics aren't going to be nearly so edgy and witty when they are burning in hellfire.

Posted by robertwp on October 10, 2008 at 8:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

When did we decide that ignorance and a closed mind were preferable over education and the search for knowledge?

Christians need to remember that a key tenet of their faith is the belief that Jesus came to take away the SINS of the world, not the MINDS of the faithful. The challenge for the Evangelicals is to realize the concept of their spirit without losing the reality of their humanity. That is the example that Jesus set for his followers. Christians, above all others, should embrace the idea that people can change from one thing into another. Reading these posts should make us all not only believe in the theory of evolution but pray that it is an ongoing process. EVOLVE for Christ’s sake!!!

Posted by jane_jhereg on October 10, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Christians aren't the first people to invent a religion nor to invent a creation myth. Just as there is no empirical, irreproachable proof that evolution is correct- there is also no proof that creationism is correct. Nor is there proof that the Christian story of creationism as found in the Bible is correct.

Various civilizations, most of whom are older than Christianity, have put forth creation myths of a wide variety. From one god to multiple gods creating life and land out of thin air or from dust or from the sea.

No one is right but too many Christians find it so easy to point out all the people who are wrong. I'm not saying non-Christians or scientists are any better. I just want to point out that the only thing all this arguing does is make everyone- creationsist, evolutionists, deists (all -ists)- appear childish and self-centered.

a_texan777 ... wow... that is ... wow. Some of the most hateful, ignorant, homophobic, racist, unchristian sounding bile I've seen spewed on these comment threads in quite some time. If being offensive was your goal, then job well done.

Posted by dblairsmith81 on October 10, 2008 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jarhead:

Way to respond to the post at 4:02PM yesterday.

You found the one line that worked for you and concentrated on that alone. You make a regular practice of that. I bet you plagiarize the heck out of everything you write.

*Again, do you discount the notion that portions of the bible may be allegorical? That individuals in the bible are historical figures whose existence are well documented?

When I said the bible is what it is to me, I meant I don't have all the answers and I'm comfortable with that. The most fundamental aspect of knowledge, is knowing you can't know it all. But maybe you're the exception to the rule.

I know this is an evolution thread. So, do you find a place for a soul in evolution? Do we have souls? What is our conscience?

Posted by JarHead on October 10, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A blow to the head will confuse a man, whereas a blow to the foot has no such effect: this cannot be the result of an immaterial soul. - Heraclitus c. 500 BCE

Posted by TexSanger on October 10, 2008 at 1:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jane: That means just what you need to hear.
No, Christians have stood on the sidelines always, while the media supports your political correctness aimed at Non-christian views.
You're welcome to go to church with me - ..would beat you're tv watching!

Posted by donny on October 10, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior.
I am a socialist Democrat. I believe that the Government should help those that can not help themselves.
I also believe in judge not lest yea be judged. Untill you live in the shoes of another you have no right to judge them, and even then it's not right to judge.

Posted by cycloptic on October 11, 2008 at 12:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This is God. I am coming to you Abilene by way of my good friend cycloptic. Listen up.

I did not create the heavens and the earth. I especially didn't have anything to do with the creation of Abilene, much less Merkel. Please. Why would I cause a mess like that?

You want to know where you all came from? Ask cycloptic. She always has a bunch of stuff lying around in her craft room. I suspect that's where you came from. You want to know why? She concocted the earth as a chew toy to entertain her yappy yorkipoo. Rain? Dog slobber. Wind? Dog farts. Mountains? Well... you get the idea.

There. Now there is definitive proof of creation. Get your panties out of a wad.

God out.

PS: I never authorized the bible. It's a load of bunk like jarhead has been telling you. Hell? Please.

Posted by cycloptic on October 11, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hi everyone, God again. I forgot to mention a couple of things.

Leave the gays alone okay? It's not a choice, they are like that genetically. In fact, they are actually genetically superior to all y'all. As much as that will probably make you all strive to be more like them, what with their great bodies and astounding fashion sense, don't bother. It has to happen on it's own. Forcing it just makes you a wannabe and it irritates them. This is especially true for the craigslist w4w crew that are actually secretly mw4w. Stop it. It just makes the real w4w mad.

And guys? Women are actually your superiors. You've were given false information in the bible. Your bigger and stronger you say? So are cows. Your smarter you say? No, actually you are not.

I don't like Sarah Palin. cycloptic is working on that little problem as we speak "dontcha know".

Protect the second amendment. It's there for a reason.

Castle doctrine is a good thing. It's called natural consequences and I'm okay with you defending your own home.

The earth is getting warmer. It's cycloptic's dog.

Convince Sharon Allen to put some rice in the buffet. Not all of us like the potato salad.

Posted by cokelly30 on October 11, 2008 at 3:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Remember, kids have "faith" in santa clause and the Easter bunny too!

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 11, 2008 at 6:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Stateofmind, I declare there are no deities of any kind, and I sleep very well, indeed. Far better in fact, than when I was a believer.

Kelpy, that's a typical attitude I've come to expect from your smug kind. You claim to be a "christian", yet your eagerness to see punishment for those with the temeroty to believe things different than you do marks you as otherwise.

Posted by JarHead on October 11, 2008 at 7:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Peace. http://www.tarvu.com/index.html

Posted by Beforeuask on October 11, 2008 at 7:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would rather live like there is a God and find out there isn't, Than live likere isn't a God and find out there is.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 11, 2008 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Beforeuask, that's the sort of Christianity I can respect. I have no problem with you, or the majority of the real Christians out there who believe as you do. My problem lies with the wild-eyed zealots like George W. Bush, Fred Phelps and some of the folks on this thread who seem to relish the thought of those who don't believe as they do going to some eternal torment. Maybe I'm wrong, but back when I still believed in that sort of thing, I was taught that we were supposed to feel bad for those who were unrepentant, or non-believers, and try to get them to see our side of things. I was taught it was wrong to deliberately wish for them to burn, or to take delight in the thought of that happening. The folks who do the things I just mentioned are the most dangerous people alive.

Posted by donny on October 11, 2008 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Amen Ddawkins.

Posted by katp1962 on October 11, 2008 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Beforeuask , that is the exact same thing I said a few days ago in another comments section. But, the more I "look" at those words...the more I disagree with their meaning. It's like saying, IF there is a God, great. IF not, that's ok too. I believe with all my heart and soul, that God does exist, and that He is the Creator of all things. I also pray for those who do not believe.

Posted by donny on October 11, 2008 at 8:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Naturally those true believers will always try to stay on the path, but there are those, such as Ddawkins, that have been on the path, but stayed. As long as they live as if there is a God they have a better chance than if they lived as if there were no God.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 11, 2008 at 9:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Donny, I must respectfully disagree with part of your statement. You state that I have been on the path, but strayed. In my view, I was on the incorrect path, but finally found the correct one. If a path leads somewhere you'd rather not go, how is it the correct one?

Posted by JarHead on October 11, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Beforeuask said "I would rather live like there is a God and find out there isn't, Than live likere isn't a God and find out there is."

The first thing I would want to know is what are the specific character traits and specific ethical traits people should have if they are living like Beforeuask (or others) think living like there is a God requires.

History is full of real pious people committing unspeakable atrocities in the name of God. The bible itself depicts God himself as capricious and lying and murderous and cruel. It is good that 'believing in god with all one's heart' does not make him real.

There are far better reasons to respect and love each other.

Posted by donny on October 11, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I stand corrected. Sorry for the misinformation.

Posted by Hammer on October 12, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Forget the Bible for a minute. Most here posting on this topic have no formal training in science and have never been a science teacher. I have been a high school biology teacher and hold a degree in that field. I can tell you this about science. When observations are made science has to come up with an explanation. It's called the scientific method. "Science" as a whole is not going to look to religion or the Bible for an explanation... hence the "theory" of evolution. It's a theory as to where man came from. An explanation. It cannot be proven. Evolutionists and Creationists look at the same observations, yet with a different set of assumptions when drawing conclusions. Both explanation's have to be accepted by "faith".

Posted by JarHead on October 12, 2008 at 9:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The scientific method makes 'assumptions' from evidence. Creationism is a set of assumptions without evidence. Creationism states it's conclusions first and dictates that the evidence conform or else. It has lost every time to real science. I fear for the education of kids who find themselves in class with teachers so self deluded they don't understand that science builds on testable knowledge while faith has resisted each and every advance in knowing. Not one creationist claim has stood the test of time and creationism has not produced even one scientific paper to support it's claim of design. Creationism is nothing but religious dogma. If believing a thing made it real, Santa would be about 1700 years old and we would all be riding around in flying saucers. Science does not rest at the level of mere opinion. It exists at the level of works. Creationism can never match that.

Posted by up_in_here_2 on October 12, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How did some of you ever graduate highschool?

Posted by wildturkey on October 12, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good question up_in_here_2. And lets not forget how many things in history that could not be understood or proven by using the bible were tossed out as being "of the devil" or "witchcraft" that "SCIENCE" later proved were "normal."

Posted by donny on October 12, 2008 at 6:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wildturkey and this is relevant how to the discussion? Wait another 100 or 200 years and they will find the missing link?

Posted by officerx on October 13, 2008 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

donny - "I am a socialist Democrat. I believe that the Government should help those that can not help themselves"

Wow I agree with donny on something...he is a socialist. This is Obama supporters folks. Donny, neither you, nor the government will take any of my hard earned paycheck unless I give consent and say where it is going. WE ARE NOT A SOCIALIST COUNTRY - YET.

Posted by JarHead on October 13, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's amazing how conservatives hate paying their share. I guess they evolved that way. They don't like paying for the roads they use, the police that protect them, the schools and hospitals or any of that socialized stuff.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 13, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Officerx, what precisely is wrong with helping those less fortunate than yourself? Ever heard the term "christian charity"? Hell, how about just plain charity? Common decency? Love for your fellow man? It's amazing; as an atheist, I seem to be a better "christian" than most of these worthless republicans. Remember, guys...your idol, Jesus, was a homeless liberal.

Posted by wildturkey on October 13, 2008 at 7:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jarhead, it's amazing how Democrats drum on about fairshare while giving out to those who don't deserve anything such as illegals. It's amazing how Democrats talk about fairshare and wanting to let the government oversee it all, tax big business knowing full well that taxes are then passed on the the American Citizen...hmmm, we get taxed on our income, taxed on our houses, then we pay the business' taxes too as our prices go up to compensate for their tax increases. Oh, and lets go with the Obama plan where Small Businesses making over $250,000 get taxed even more but get a tax break for "hiring new employees" that they can no longer afford due to their tax increases.

Posted by wildturkey on October 13, 2008 at 7:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Donny, my comment refers to how "Christains" seem to want to always lump the unknown into "of Satan" or "Evil", then put on blinders and earplugs to those scientists who've proven later on that it was none of that at all. Look at natural disasters that have been written off in past history as God's punishment when science has proven that it was a natural occurance, occurring many many times in Earth's history on not so regular intervals. But I'll take it in another direction. I've stated this in another post--science can be man's way for explaining God's creation and I believe it is--I do believe in God--and I believe that man is too short sighted to see God's will--I also believe that until we see and meet God, all bets are off--God may not be quite what the world's religions have taught us He is; afterall, man wrote the bibles of the world--man is fallible--man is man, not God.

Posted by wildturkey on October 13, 2008 at 7:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To believe in Creationism as God's work and then to write off Evolution as not possible is absolutely stupid for me. I believe that Evolution is a natural, God created process by which all inhabitants of Earth cope whether is be the smallest insect to the largest mammal.

Posted by wildturkey on October 13, 2008 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For those of you "good christians", ask yourself this question, "Do I actually believe that God is not capable?"

Posted by wildturkey on October 13, 2008 at 8:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To the writer, Mr. Lou David Allen: You are perfectly willing to believe in "Immaculate Conception" but not willing to believe in "bisexual species transitions". To use your own words, I'll ask you the same question you posed, "Can you imagine the mathematical probability requirements for even one event of this kind to happen?" Last I remember it went this way, "...in the beginning God created the Heaven and Earth..." Now let's see, the theory of Evolution is on what planet? Studied by science? Thought up by man? Ah yes, still part of God's Creation.