Posted by newguy062 on October 2, 2008 at 1:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HEY! We don't kindly to book readin' round here!

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 2, 2008 at 2:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have said it before, Both Creation, and Evolution, are theories. We could do with facts only in our theft-supported schools.

Kids can learn either theory on their own time.

Incidently, I lean towards Evolution.

Posted by qquixi on October 2, 2008 at 4:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I disagree its about time teachers are allowed to teach facts about all subjects, IMO there is more evidence of evolution but that doesn't mean theres not a spiritual aspect. They shouldn't have to teach to the TAKS either. Instead a strong curriculum in all major classes/subjects would be more beneficial to our students. Now back to the article the two diverse ideas can coexist. Teach your own religious/faith/political/moral beliefs at home and your place of worship. Let the schools teach math/language/science/history/social studies/health. Kids not instructed in these basics are not ready for and are in fact being refused admission to college. Those that feel their faith is threatened, IMHO are not very faithful. In the end we each decide what we believe from all we have been taught and experienced. I trusted my children's ability/intelligence to think for themselves, and so far I've been delighted with the paths they have taken in life

Posted by hiloecho on October 2, 2008 at 6:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So the magical man in the sky who wants your money has been or will be proven? If so will he/she/it be riding a dinosaur at the supposed 2nd coming?

Posted by Fordsandguns on October 2, 2008 at 6:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

hiloecho, Why do you have to be so rude and hateful to those of us who believe in God? A lot of those that want go the evolution route want respect from the creationist side but can't seem to give it in return. And it can happen on both sides. I think both sides need to quit bashing on the other and just leave it alone if they can't show some respect. If you don't believe fine, but don't run someone down because they do! And vice-versa! Just show some common courtesy.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 2, 2008 at 6:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jean, I hate to break it to you, but at least evolution is a theory with scientific evidence to back it up. Your "creation" idea is a myth, pure and simple.

It comes down to this...our public, tax-funded schools are NOT there to teach children religious consepts, they are there to teach them useful subjects. You want children taught your religious concept? There's a place for that; a place which, incidentally, is tax-exempt. It's called a church, a temple, a mosque, or a synagogue.

Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church!

Posted by GreenArrow on October 2, 2008 at 8:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow ddawkins, I'm not one way or the other on this topic as of now, but your first sentence in your comment is a riot! "At least evolution is a THEORY with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back it up." It has to be hard to make yourself seem credible with statements like that....maybe you should think about rephrasing it a bit, don't you think? It might give you a little more credibility...just a thought.

Posted by TexasHistorian on October 2, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I recently taught Evolution of Scientific Thought, an upper level history class at one of the local universities, where we discussed evolution by natural selection at length. It is a good theory because it fits the available evidence. That still does not not mean it is true however. A good scientist should be prepared to revise or abandon a theory if new evidence does not support the old theory. That said, the theory of evolution by natural selection should be taught in our schools as it is a good theory and the current paradigm for all life sciences. I just wish science teachers would spend more time teaching the scientific method so students would understand the definition of theory. Maybe they could teach their parents.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 2, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

GreenArrow, I don't need for one instant to rethink my statement. Science has proven that species do evolve, and that we humans have done so. No reason exists not to understand that the likliest probability is that we evolved from a lower form of life, as did all other living things.

Now, compare that to the fable of "creation" supported by nothing more or less than a book riddled with other impossibilities such as zombies and people defying the laws of nature.

Guess which one makes more sense?

Posted by robertwp on October 2, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Evolution is a scientific theory with years of study and volumes of supporting evidence. That evidence includes a wide range of observations throughout the fields of animal behavior, anatomy, genetics, paleontology, and it is even shown to us in transitional fossils. Evolution is not synonymous with common descent. However, we all recognize that bacteria mutate and that insects develop resistance to insecticides over time. The rate at which just these two phenomena occur is ample to demonstrate that we all have evolved from a common ancestor. Keep in mind that the scientists who gave us the groundwork for the development of the theory of evolution were themselves believers in the creation story. The focus of their study was intended, in many cases, to find proof of the biblical account of creation. They found instead that the earth was much older than what the bible indicated and that the overwhelming proof that species evolved was undeniable.

On the other hand, the creation story is a myth that deals with the origin of man in a religious context and has no ground in scientific thought. This story does not deal with the question of "how"; it deals strictly with the question of "why". Creationism, as an alternative to evolution, demands an assumption of infallibility instead of an attitude of questions, exploration and discovery. It is, in fact, the antithesis of science. It is incorrect to teach creationism as science.

It is my belief that Evangelical Christians realize that they have failed so miserably at the task of passing on the essence of Jesus to the world, that they are now resorting to the legislation of brainwashing and programming in order to impose their belief system on the world. Hopefully they will soon realize the error of these methods and “retool” their organization for the implementation of the original methods of faith, hope and charity.

Posted by drummerboy on October 2, 2008 at 10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hiloecho. Uhhh, yeah, yeah, that's it! The magical man will be riding a huge dinosaur that has big sharp teeth and breathing fire. Magical man will also be carrying a big basket and we all have to pitch our money in so He can take it back in the sky and live richly in His magical kingdom.

ddawkins. If we all evolved from apes as most scientists believe, why are there still apes? Did some of our ancestors miss the boat on this? It's about as absurd as schools forcing the spanish language on children that have no desire to learn it. Anyway, I'll "create" a prayer for you.

Posted by robertwp on October 2, 2008 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"If we all evolved from apes as most scientists believe, why are there still apes?"

This statement/question is incorrect on every level. It is a favorite of false trap of the creationism crowd. It is one of those "Have you quit stealing watermelons" questions that, even though it is built on a lie, cannot be answered without acknowledging the lie to be true.
Most scientists don't believe that we evolved from apes. Many scientists believe that we evolved from a common ancestor. Man evolved from ape-like creatures. Those creatures were not chimps or gorillas or reeses monkeys or baboons or orangutans or gibbons or anything else that you might find at a zoo. These primates, along with humans, have evolved from more simple life forms.

Posted by ringeye on October 2, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Kinda funny.....I understand when the last survey was taken the vast majority of folks in the US believed in God...What does that say to the several theories concerning evolution. I believe in evolution to the extent that things change, but not to the extent that man evolved from apes or something out of the sea..Because scientists over the years do not have faith in the teachings of the Bible which they said could not be proven, they had to come up with something like Einstein that gave some sort of rationale(in their mind's eye). I love the passage in the Bible that refers to man's knowledge as something that God winks at! I was in the school business for 40 years and never heard of one science teacher in any of the 7 schools that I served in, teach the theory of evolution, as far as man's beginnings. All one has to do is look around for the wonders of God and all his creations..No evolution could have ever, ever created such beauty..And once again, to all you atheists out there...remember...I have heard and believe that there are no atheists in fox holes...Have a great 08!!

Posted by lee_vee_one on October 2, 2008 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OCHAMS RAZOR - WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE MOST REASONABLE AND EASIEST ANSWER IS PROBABLY THE RIGHT ONE. CONTINUE SCIENTIFIC TEACHING IN SCIENCE AND REMEMBER THIS IS NOT A ONE CHURCH STATE (GOVERNMENT). SO IF CHRISTIAN CREATIONISM IS TO BE TAUGHT SO SHOULD ALL THE OTHER CREATIONISM STORIES OF ALL THE OTHER RELIGONS ON THIS PLANET BE TAUGHT IN OUR PUBLIC DEMOCRATIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS. . . . OR SEND YOUR CHILDREN TO YOUR SPECIFIC CHURCH SCHOOL. AMEN. ********** BY THE WAY MY FAMILY HAD BEEN LIVING IN THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT LONG BEFORE THE MAYFLOWER SHIP LANDED AT PLYMOUTH ROCK.

Posted by maggiedog on October 2, 2008 at 11:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I do agree that both theories be taught in the proper forum and venue. However, if these schools are public schools, and I presume they are then this is in direct violation od separation of church and state. If I had children in public schools and creatioism was being taught to the exclusion of evolution, I'd yank them out with all deliberate speed. Lee_vee_one my family was here long before the pilgrims as well. I'd say we had a spritual understanding long before most civilized peoples. To all the parents who want their children to be taught creationism, pull them out of public school and place them in a school whose beliefs and curriculum are compatible with yours. Oh, lest I forget that free thinking isn't encouraged in Abilene, The Buckle of The Bible Belt and the town that brought you Billie Sol Estes. It might lead to dancing and mixed swimming. Oh, horrors we can't have that!

Posted by squid on October 2, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

you know, evolution may have some merit. the libertarian, robert, dawkins, dummerboy and the rest appear to have evolved from intelligent beings into MBBEs. (mouth breathing booger eaters)

Posted by Fordsandguns on October 2, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think this has anything to do with God or science with most of you. It is about "I'm right and You're wrong!". Both sides are close minded because they want to be the one that is right. That seems to be whole argument.

Posted by up_in_here on October 2, 2008 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The dumbing of our children.......

Jean Henderson,

Just becasue you are ignorant, does not mean that something is not true. Go play with your bible and guns and leave the applications of science to the rest of us.

Posted by abbilene on October 2, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins-
"Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church!"
That stopped me in my tracks. I am totally stealing that and pretending like i thought it up!

Posted by lee_vee_one on October 2, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FAIR IS FAIR. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES WAS WRITTEN TO BE FAIR TO ALL ITS PEOPLE.
THE EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT LEFT EUROPE CAME TO THIS COUNTRY TO GET AWAY FROM ONE CHURCH STATE GOVERNMENTS. RELIGON SHOULD BE KEPT AT HOME WITH YOUR FAMILIES AND IN YOUR PLACES OF WORSHIP. NOT IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by squid on October 2, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

hey pagan, why are you yelling? CapsLock, CapsUnlock.....

Posted by abileneres on October 2, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I know that's so annoying. I think that they think that by typing in all caps gives more emphasis,but I just read over it instead.

QUIT YELLING! ! ! ! ! ! ! :O !

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 2, 2008 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Drummerboy, you asked:
"ddawkins. If we all evolved from apes as most scientists believe, why are there still apes?"
Apes are fellow primates descended from a common ancestor. We went one way, they went another. It's quite simple, really.

"It's about as absurd as schools forcing the spanish language on children that have no desire to learn it."
On the contrary, it's quite logical. Unless you can explain why our DNA is nearly identical to the great apes, and our skeletal structure likewise.

Abbilene...Use it all you like, I stole it from a bumper sticker I read on a website selling atheist items.
www.evolvefish.com

Posted by ringeye on October 2, 2008 at 2:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No one seemed to want to answer the question??? If the great majority of people in the US believe in God(even our money has His name on it), then why are we force fed the brew ha ha about evolution? Is this the minority trying to tell the majority what should be taught and how? Course if BO is elected President, and it appears that he may, we might all see some changes!!!

Posted by kelpy on October 2, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I firmly believe that evolution is God's instrument for creation.

Posted by kelpy on October 2, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way Ringeye, I was in the school business for nearly 40 years, 18 of those years as Superintendent at small schools in Central and West Texas. I would never let a science teacher work for me that didn't present the theory of evolution to his or her students. Science is for School, spirituality is for church and home.

Posted by kelpy on October 2, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And to answer your question, we teach the theory of evolution because it encourages deductive thought and reasoning, and with each bit of evidence that is uncovered, can be more throughly proven or disproven as the case maybe. There is no subjective means for proving or disproving the theory of creation. Religion of any kind is based on belief in that which cannot be proven.

Posted by HoursAway on October 2, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, so we need to to plan lessons, teach class, grade papers, keep the kids from killing each other, keep the kids from killing US, make the parents happy, make our principals happy, teach cross-curricular lessons, attend countless hours of staff development, raise your kids AND now we should PROTEST? I'm a Christian that believes we were created in a world of evolution (c'mon, almost every species has or is in the process of eveolving..) but I will not force my views upon my students. If we became a predominately pagan society would we teach our kids the devil created us?

Posted by JarHead on October 2, 2008 at 2:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"No one seemed to want to answer the question??? If the great majority of people in the US believe in God(even our money has His name on it), then why are we force fed the brew ha ha about evolution? Is this the minority trying to tell the majority what should be taught and how?" Mob rules?

No, we do not teach what everyone believes because we teach the truth instead. That millions of people believe something does not make it true.

Evolution is the only explanation that come anywhere near explaining the millions of facts of life on this planet. It is the one and only explanation that has made predictions that have been verified over and over in life science discoveries.

The creation stories have all proven to be false. Everyone of them. Those millions of believers may have their feelings hurt by the facts but their feelings do not change the facts.

Since they cannot change the facts they should change their feelings. Teaching lies with public money will just get you sued. If you like higher taxes, just teach creation in public schools.

Posted by JarHead on October 2, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To the questioner who asked if we are descended from apes or monkeys and such, whey to we still have monkeys? The answer is; for the same reason that you still have cousins.

Posted by maggiedog on October 2, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kelpy you make the most sense of anyone. I believe you got it right. I'm a very religious person, but I do believe there is a forum and venue for everything.

Posted by Tumbleweed on October 2, 2008 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Romans 16:17

Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Some will say this closes the minds of bible thumpers. For me you can explain a theory of evolution and someone else can explain creationism.

Great!

At the end of the day it causes division and someone gets their feelings hurt. In order not offend the one determined evolution is correct and not to offend the one determined creation is correct, I offer another verse for both parties to be more concerned with.

Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my beloved…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

It should be noted that both of these were written by the same man.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 2, 2008 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kelpy,

Great posts.

Posted by kelpy on October 2, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't get me wrong -- I also believe strongly that Jesus is the only way to eternal salvation and that this country desperately needs to get back to being the Christian nation it was designed by the forefathers to be, but that said, I also believe firmly that the government is wholly unqualified to teach me or my family about religion.

Posted by hiloecho on October 2, 2008 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

hiloecho, Why do you have to be so rude and hateful to those of us who believe in God?

"Rude and hateful", sorry. My opinion is that creationsism is a sexist myth and monotheism itself to me is rude and hateful. My question is valid to those who believe this magical man created man and woman from man. What, were the dinosaurs an experiment?

Posted by zoso on October 2, 2008 at 6:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church!"

That is a classic line! However, I'm always curious as to why stories/letters like this get the most comments...same people saying the same thing. Just wondering.

Posted by lee_vee_one on October 2, 2008 at 6:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HEY THERE YOU ALL GO AGAIN. MORE RULES ABOUT HOW TO TALK AND HOW TO TYPE. I AM NOT YELLING EVEN IF YOUR COMPUTER IS CONNECTED TO A VOICE MODULATION DEVICE YOU WONT HEAR YELLING. I'M JUST AN OLD MAN WHO HAS BEEN WATCHING AND EXPERIENCING POLITICS , GOVERNMENT, AND RELIGON IN THIS TOWN FOR MORE THAN A HALF CENTURY. I ALSO WORKED ON ONE THE FIRST COMPUTERS IN THIS CITY IN 1970 AND NOBODY EVER ASKED ME TO VOTE TO SEE IF TYPING IN CAPS IS WRONG OR A SIN.
HEY KELPY COULD HAVE GOOD IDEA. THIS NOT ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG ON THEORIES. IT IS ABOUT THE PROPER PLACE AND TIME FOR THINGS. WE STILL NEED TO TEACH SCIENCE IN SCHOOL AND RELIGON AT HOME.

Posted by kelpy on October 2, 2008 at 2:16 p.m.
I firmly believe that evolution is God's instrument for creation.

OH! I ALSO PROMISE NOT TO THINK IN YOU ALLS CHURCHES IF YOU PROMISE NOT TO TEACH CREATIONISM IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS. SEPERATE AND EQUAL. WHAT DO SAY. AYE.

Posted by tail4 on October 2, 2008 at 6:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am a product of evolution. Hooray.

Posted by wildturkey on October 2, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny how the writer of this article thinks that evolution hasn't been proven but creationism has.

Posted by treelinestreet on October 2, 2008 at 8:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Consequently, there is no scientific consensus on how life began

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 2, 2008 at 9:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HoursAway asks:
"If we became a predominately pagan society would we teach our kids the devil created us?"
Maybe you should learn a little something about paganism, before saying such things.

Posted by JayWalton on October 2, 2008 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Just imagine if evolution had gone a different route, What if what we know as human beings now were the wild animals and Apes were the civilized ones. Do you think the apes would get upset if we threw poop on them when they came to see us at the zoo?

Also does the fact that I have "more than the average" amount of hair on my back mean I am Less evolved?

Just imagine if monkeys were civilized. Monkey teachers could never send Monkey students to the Monkey Principal's office. Because you know what the Monkey principal does to bad Monkeys? I will give you a hint he uses a paddle and it has been know to cause blindness.

Posted by JayWalton on October 2, 2008 at 10:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I also think God, If you believe in him. Is "your" God. Not everyones. Kinda like a personal pan pizza from pizza hut. He is what you think he is. Not a cookie cutter long hair, sandals and a torn robe.

That said my God likes pretty women and wants me to look at them alot. He also like alcohol and does not mind if I indulge a little. He loves fast cars and UFC fights. He encourages me to write on the ARN website and try and inject a little humor. Oh, by the way he just said tell all of ya'll Hi! And he also said if you don't laugh a little you will go to Henry Edward Lincoln Lincoln.(only use the first letter of the last 4 words). Well gota go me and my God are runnin to the store for some lotto tickets and a slurpee. He loves mountain dew slurpees.

Posted by krprilliman on October 2, 2008 at 10:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What can I say, JayWalton, except that your comment has brought a smile to my face. :-)

Posted by JayWalton on October 2, 2008 at 11:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

MAN you won't believe what just happened. Me and my God just ran to the store as you well know. We went to the one by Mr. Gattis. As were leaving A couple of punks tried to jack my God for his slurpee. I yelled "Oh my God!" Man you should have seen it. He jumped outta my car and took them to Sunday school. I guess all that UFC stuff kinda soaked in. Talk about the wrath of God. There was a huge crowd before it was over and everyone was saying "Oh, my God". I jumped out and said "Oh, no you didn't!" this is my God. Get your own. Needless to say we had to get out of there with a quickness before APD showed. Because my God knows they are overworked and underpaid as it is without responding to a Divine-Behind whippin. My God is still shaking. He is just thanking himself that nobody was hurt.

Well me and my God are gonna hit the Playstation III and Madden 09, then off to bed. I am not for sure but I think my God cheats when we play Madden 09. He always... uh oh gotta go.........................................

Posted by krprilliman on October 2, 2008 at 11:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've heard good things about Madden '09 and am pleased to know that your God approves of it.

Posted by Imp on October 3, 2008 at 1:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jay, all I have to say is LOL! I do not even know how to react other than laughing.

Posted by lee_vee_one on October 3, 2008 at 1:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

JAYWALTON NOW THAT'S THE ATTITUDE WE NEED IN ABILENE.

BOY I WISH JUST FIFTY PERCENT OF THIS TOWN HAD YOUR SPIRT THEN THINGS WOULD REALLY START TO CHANGE.

PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD JOB ON ARN COMMENTS.

Posted by holyman on October 3, 2008 at 1:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

• "I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it has been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future." — Malcolm Muggeridge, Journalist and philosopher, Pascal Lectures, University of Waterloo, Canada.

• "Evolution is unproved and unprovable." — Sir Arthur Keith, (author of Foreword to The Origin of Species, 100th edition), wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Keith.

• "Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota of fact." — Dr. T. N. Tahmisian (Atomic Energy Commission), Batesville Daily Guard, May 28, 2003.

• "Scientists concede that their most cherished theories are based on embarrassingly few fossil fragments and that huge gaps exist in the fossil record." — Time magazine, Nov. 7, 1977.

• "As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth?" — Charles Darwin, Evolution or Creation, p.139.

• "If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark." — Richard Leakey, paleo-anthropologist.

• "Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." — Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229.

• "A building is absolute proof there was a builder, and creation is absolute proof there is a Creator. The big question is, are you good enough to go to Heaven when you die? Here's God's standard: 'Whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.' No liar or thief will inherit the Kingdom of God. Have you lied, stolen, or looked with lust . . . even once? 'All liars will have their part in the lake of fire.' It's not God's will that you perish. He made a way for you to be forgiven: "God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Then Jesus rose from the dead. Please, today, repent and trust Him, and you will pass from death to life.

Posted by lee_vee_one on October 3, 2008 at 2:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

GOOD WORK HOLYMAN YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE STUDIED QUITE A LOT TO FIND ALL THOSE REFERENCED QUOTES. YOU AS ONE THE CITIZENS OF THIS GREAT NATION HAS FOUND THE FREEDOM OF YOUR BELIEFS. JUST BE SURE TO HONOR EVERYONE ELSES FREEDOM BY SPEAKING YOUR BELIEFS AT CHURCH,YOUR HOME,RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS, THE INTERNET,AND MOST PUBLIC PLACES. BUT NOT IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS UNLESS YOUR WILLING TO HAVE ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS ON THIS PLANET TO ALSO BE TAUGHT IN AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS. HUM! WHAT DO SAY? THANK GOD FOR AMERICA. WHERE YOUR FREE TO WORSHIP AS YOU PLEASE. HUM! MULL THAT OVER FOR A WHILE.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 3, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Evolution Theory is like Circumstantial Evidence.

Creationism is like Conjecture.

It is not necessary to ground all Biological Learning upon The Theory of Evolution. The observeable principals of mutation and of Adaptation through variability and survival of the fittist to a change in environment will suffice.

Both Creationism and Evolutionism are taken to varying degrees on faith.

Concede this, remove both from public schools, and students can concentrate on learning without the static of having to believe one or the other.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The observeable principals of mutation and of Adaptation through variability and survival of the fittist to a change in environment will suffice."

Wait... what?

You do understand that those are the primary mechanisms of evolution, right? That's like saying, "It's not necessary to ground an understanding of moving objects on the "Theory of Momentum." The observable principles that 'a body in motion will stay in motion and a body at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force' will suffice."

(If you're just trying to suggest that we teach evolution without calling it evolution in the hope that the religious right is so ignorant of basic science that they won't even notice, I have to applaud your cynicism and give up some props. I didn't get the impression that you were being ironic, though.)

Evolution is not taken on any varying degree of faith. It is taken on demonstrable, observed, recorded, REPRODUCIBLE scientific FACT. It is that simple. Anyone arguing otherwise is as ignorant and misguided as those who deny the holocaust or say that the moon landing was faked.

The ideas that evolution is not fact and that creationism deserves an equal place at the educational table are ridiculous pieces of atavistic ignorance that should be mocked, ridiculed, and hounded out of the public discourse at every available opportunity.

Conceding scientific fact to the superstitious stammering of witch doctors by removing the foundational principle of modern biology from schools is a concession to ignorance that will harm our children's ability to compete with kids in nations that aren't stuck in the Dark Ages. It will compromise our nation's already-tenuous leadership in science, and it will put us at a decided disadvantage in biological and medical research and development, one of the few areas where we have been on solid ground now that we've given away all of our industry.

Posted by sauria on October 3, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Science only accepts evidence as support. It is not a faith based system of inquiry. Hopefully, you'll never meet a pathogen that has evolved resistance to nearly every drug we try to throw at it (MRSA). Without an understanding of evolution one could not practice modern medicine effectively. Teach science in science classrooms.

Posted by HoursAway on October 3, 2008 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, I don't study paganism, but you get the idea.

Posted by lifeson1 on October 3, 2008 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Abilene-Libertarian, excatly 100% correct. When kids get older, like over 18 and are in college, they can ELECT to take classes of controversy. However, in a public school they are a captive audience.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is no controversy.

READ A BOOK.

(Maybe two.)

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 3, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

HoursAway, the only idea I get is that you have absolutely no idea what paganism means.

Posted by jamieg on October 3, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How about that. It actually works Llama.

I read two books. The first was the Bible. The second was the Oxford Handbook of Clinical Medicine.

The first one gave me faith. The second one convinced me that faith has no place in education.

Kind of like wallpaper and lumber... both have a purpose but, try as one might, no amount of the first will compensate for deficiencies in the latter.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Awww, man. You're as bad as apricot and junebug.

Every time I work up a good head of steam and start spinning out and self-righteously calling everyone witch doctors, you gotta come along and humble me by being all patient and generous and reasonable.

(Your way may be more effective, but my way is MUCH more fun.)

Posted by Chase_O on October 3, 2008 at 6:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with kelpy. School is not the time or place to teach faith. If you don't want your children to believe in evolution take the time to sit with them and explain the difference between what I believe to be our creator, God, and the evolution theory. But the people who are "children" now will one day be adults, and they need to be well informed adults. Sheltering them does nothing. Give them the facts and let them make their own informed decision. The only thing that separates the two are faith. Neither can be proven till you die anyway, and then it won't even matter. Well, at least not for me anyway.
Philippians 1:3

Posted by jamieg on October 3, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey, don't let me interfere...spin away. Witchdoctory is a pretty conservative way of describing some of the religious lunacy that appears in here.

What baffles me Llama is how so many Christians get bent out of shape over the idea of the education system teaching their children the biology of human reproduction by complaining that such lessons belong in the home where they can be tailored to the parents' morality. Yet the majority of the same group sees absolutely no problem at all with their schools teaching the "science" of Christianity.

Posted by hspower2003 on October 3, 2008 at 7:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Holy Spirit brought all things into existence as God spoke them... In the beginning the Holy Spirit was brooding over the waters of the earth. Satan had fell to earth and caused the confusion and water to cover the whole earth, but God saw the confusion and said bring forth the firmament from the waters….God has brought forth a Solid Ground to stand on from the confusion of the waters that are still tossing and eroding away from Satan’s stirring… How long can you tread water in the confusion of evolution?

Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 7:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"How long can you tread water in the confusion of evolution?"

Four billion years and counting.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 3, 2008 at 8:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

hspower, that's a very pretty story. Do we get cookies and milk with it?

Okay, now that the magic story hour is over, back to scientific reality: Evolution exists, and is the most likely explanation of how we came to be on this ball of rock we call home.

Posted by hspower2003 on October 3, 2008 at 8:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Romans 1:20-25 (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 3, 2008 at 9:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

<<<Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The observeable principals of mutation and of Adaptation through variability and survival of the fittist to a change in environment will suffice."

Wait... what?

You do understand that those are the primary mechanisms of evolution, right? >>>

***Yes, but observable evolution can exist without having to stipulate that WE got HERE that way. As I see it, the creationists just want us to stop teaching their kids that the Bible is wrong. If we teach the mechanisms of evolution without insisting that dynosaurs EVOLVED into birds, and that HUMANS EVOLVED from NON-HUMANS, the thumpers can mislead their children as much as they want.***

Posted by hspower2003 on October 3, 2008 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The fact is that there are no fossilized remains linking anything to another. The missing links of evolution are still missing.

Posted by kelly_41_2000 on October 3, 2008 at 9:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Either way a person can make up their own mind. I think for the schools they should go ahead and teach the evolution thing and in turn if one wants their children to know religeon they should teach them on their own time. Maybe take em to various churches and allow their kids to experience other forms of religeon. Let em make up their own minds.But in an informed way.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 3, 2008 at 9:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"If we teach the mechanisms of evolution without insisting that dynosaurs EVOLVED into birds..."

I see. I still disagree with you (I think it's important that people understand the whole picture, and teaching the agents of change without teaching the changes they effect seems kind of silly to me,) but for a second there I thought you were completely off your rocker.

On another note: I can't tell if hspower is trolling. Can we get a ruling from the judges?

On yet another note: Daddy's doing tequila tonight, so I can't promise to be on my best behavior.

Posted by wild_bill on October 3, 2008 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I always figured God created us using evolution. I also felt that telling God how HE did something or should have done something was outside of my pay scale and job description. We are here. I believe HE did it. The details aren't real important to me.

The road to places I have never been will always be longer than the road to places I've already gone. There will always be more to learn than what we already know. Evolution or Creation? Neither are exclusive in light of our ignorance.

Posted by newguy062 on October 3, 2008 at 10:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think he's trolling so much as he fails to realize that evolution and religion CAN go hand in hand (the judge that normally rules on this is drinking with your old man).

How and why hspower, apples and oranges.

Posted by dr__dawggy on October 4, 2008 at 7:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wild--Bill said: I always figured God created us using evolution. I also felt that telling God how HE did something or should have done something was outside of my pay scale and job description.
-----
Good thinking Wild Bill. God gave poor old JOB a pretty severe scolding for thinking outside of his pay scale.

All those folks who imagine they understand God and how HE accomplished HIS creation ought to spend more time reading Job and less time posting on these internets telling us how they suppose God did what HE did.

I put believers like these in the same category as those who presume to speak for God in matters of public policy, such as God wants us to elect Republicans, invade Iraq, build a missle defense system, protect our constitutional right to buy automatic weapons, privatize Social Security and so forth.

Try as I might, I do not find God staking out a position on these subjects in the Bible and HE does not speak to me directly about line item vetos and such.

Call me a skeptic or a heretic even, but I am a little suspicious of those who say God told them to tell me that I should stand against the evil doers who want to revoke tax breaks for the rich or to teach science as science.

Posted by wbarloww on October 4, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have one question. Why is it that the 'pro-evolution' crowd if they so believe that theirs is the true position are afraid to have alternate theories (because both are just that) taught alongside of their theory? It appears the 'intelligent design' crowd has no fear.

Posted by dr__dawggy on October 4, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

wbarloww. I would prefer that religion be taught in the home and in church and that science be taught in the schools. I'm funny that way.

Posted by jamieg on October 4, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

wbarloww:

a. because there is virtually no literal intersection between anything we read in the bible and the natural physical world.

b. because a majority of Christians wish to adopt the teachings of the bible in its literal translation.

c. because if we do not refer to the bible in its literal translation, and instead choose to view it as symbolism and metaphor, it is not science but rather literature.

Tolkien, Milton, Wells, Asimov, Steinbeck, Le Guin, etc. all wrote some very did insightful stuff; much of which has profound life and morality lessons embeded. However, as much as we might enjoy the Lord of the Rings, at the point that we begin to seriously consider sorcery as underlying human behavior we are in BIG trouble. The works of the bible are no different.

Burning bushes, Orcs, angels, elves. Let's put it in perspective.

Posted by krprilliman on October 4, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"I would prefer that religion be taught in the home and in church and that science be taught in the schools."

Wow...I think that dr__dawggy just provided the most concise and logical response I've seen from anyone on this issue!

Very nicely put.

Posted by wmarkp on October 4, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

personally, I'd prefer to believe in creationism. I dont like to think that my ancestors were 'apes' or monkies. And, in so saying, if humans did evolve from apes; why are there still apes around in zoos and the wild? Did they miss the 'evolution bus'? I think the schools should teach upon the basis of what this country was founded on:'In God We Trust'. And, those that dont concur, or agree, can pack up and head to another country, more so inline with those peoples thoughts and ideals.

Posted by jamieg on October 4, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

wmarkp: like or dislike whatever you choose. The beauty of the principles upon which this nation was founded is that they allow you to believe as you choose while simultaneously allowing others to disagree with you.

Disagreeing with your religious beliefs is the inalienable right of every breathing person in this country, including yourself. Participation in governance is the inalienable right of each of them as well.

If you don't like it, perhaps YOU might be more comfortable elsewhere.

Posted by jamieg on October 4, 2008 at 2:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And might I add by the way, teaching creationism in school, as an historically held alternative to evolution, doesn't particularly bother me. What bothers me is the idea of teaching a "version" of creation.

Addressing the theory of creation in school really amounts to a lesson no more than several minutes long: all existence as we know it was deliberately brought into being by an organized force of which we have absolutely no tangible knowledge, but may or may not someday. THAT is creationism.

"God" created man in his own image, etc., etc... THAT is a deliberately instrumental, extremely value-laden and literal interpretation of a biblical story. THAT is ONE version of creation. THAT has absolutely no more place as a normative lesson in any public school science classroom than Mary Shelley's Frankenstein does in a med school lecture.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 4, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...if humans did evolve from apes; why are there still apes around in zoos and the wild? Did they miss the 'evolution bus'?"

No. How many times does this sorry bit of junior-high "insight" have to be curb-stomped before it will finally lay down and bleed out and stop twitching and die the ugly and brutal death it so richly deserves? Come on, man, this ain't rocket science. The answer to that question is basic stuff that you should have learned in the 10th grade. Would you be this proud of your ignorance if you couldn't read or do simple arithmetic?

"...the basis of what this country was founded on:'In God We Trust'."

Oh, I see. Your grasp of history is commensurate with your understanding of science.

"...those that dont concur, or agree, can pack up and head to another country, more so inline with those peoples thoughts and ideals."

No. You get out. This is my country. It was founded on freedom, including freedom of religion. If you're looking for a theocracy, move to Iran. Let the rest of us enjoy the freedoms that were bought for us with the blood of patriots.

The reason the United States is at the top of the global food chain is because we have been ahead of the curve on science and technology since day one. Communications, transportation, computing, aerospace, BIOTECH... all of it is vital to our position as world leader.

If you want to huddle in caves cursing the lightning and rattling a handful of chicken bones to bring the rain and ward off evil, have at it, but leave our education system out of it. Mandarin is hell of difficult for an old guy like me to learn, so I'd kind of like the future of medicine and biotech to continue to reside here in the U.S. where it belongs.

Posted by aintmyfault on October 4, 2008 at 6:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A great link and place to go (from what I heard) is the Creationist Museum in Glen Rose Texas. Here is the link:

http://www.creationism.org/cem/index.htm

Certainly it is much easier to think that the earth is billions of years old ... AND NOT just 6000 years old at this time - after all, look at the mess of things we made ... just look at the U.S. of A. for instance - only around 200 years old ... and so polluted that when you get pulled out to sea from a hurricane ... you get a flesh eating disease.

Personally I find it hard to believe that it only took 6000 years for man to get so ... stupid?

But, then again - if one desires to believe he evolved from a monkey - and yet we still have monkeys that have not changed a bit since they were created ... go for it. I will leave you alone and you will eventually fall into the ditch you made.

Posted by athenabutterfly on October 4, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Teach both evolution and creation...why is this so difficult to figure out on either side???

Posted by newguy062 on October 4, 2008 at 7:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Teaching creation would have to acknowledge the existence of a creator. The question is which creator? The Judeo-Christian god? The Hindu gods and goddesses? Maybe we could go with the Greco-Roman gods and goddesses of old, or even the proverbial flying spaghetti moster!

The fact is creation would force government funded schools to endorse a religion, which is a violation of the Constitution. Not only that because creation is based SOLEY on faith, it has no place in science classrooms.

Posted by newguy062 on October 4, 2008 at 7:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Greco should be Grecco

Posted by jamieg on October 4, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Teaching creation would have to acknowledge the existence of a creator. The question is which creator?"

Precisely. If it were enough to tell students "society has traditionally held creationist beliefs based solely upon faith and completely devoid of scientific evidence" (much in the same way we teach students flat-earth theory) we might be in a position to devote a few minutes of education to creationism.

This is not enough to satisfy most proponents of creationist teaching in this country however. They want "Christian" creationism taught as normative, or as a contemporary and scientifically viable alternative to evolution.

There is currently no more scientific evidence to support creation of the natural universe (much less a Christian God's creation thereof) as there is evidence supporting the existence of bigfoot.

The idea of mentioning creationism in science class is problematic in itself, and should probably be limited to mention as a matter of social interest if it is included at all. Given how desperately many people want it to be truth, and how far they are willing to go to make it so, I think it probably shouldn't be mentioned at all. However... actually teaching Christian creationism as normative science is absolutely preposterous. As Llama said, we may as well retreat to caves with a chicken-bone talisman.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 4, 2008 at 7:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hspower states: "The missing links of evolution are still missing."
Just because they haven't been found yet, doesn't mean they don't exist. The fact remains, we can trace our own heritage backward through several evolutionary stages of prehistoric man, including Australopithecus, Homo erectus, Cro magnon, Neanderthal, and George W. Bush.

Meanwhile, all we have for the "creationism" tale is just that...a tale. No evidence, just conjecture, and the sophistry that we mist simply accept it "on faith". As Dan Barker once stated so excellently, "Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 4, 2008 at 7:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Aintmyfault, I've been to that "museum", and it's an absolute crock of fertilizer. Short on science, and long on mythology uncomfortably stuffed into an ill-fitting and extremely thin scientific jacket. Even as a preteen, I knew that were bunko artists, and unworthy of the title "museum". Sideshow is much better fitting.

Posted by wbarloww on October 4, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins71,

Since you want to discusws the evolutionary concept of the stages of prehistoric man; maybe you can answer a few questions without getting abusive or obnoxious. Lets take the example of four main races (Caucasian, African, Middle Eastern, Asian/Mongolian. Now did all three evolve from the same species of Monkey/Ape? If so, then which evolved first and which evolved last? If they did not all evolve from the same species of Monkey/Ape, then would that make the four races all different? If not, why?

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 4, 2008 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Your questions are some of the ones that scientists have yet to answer. That, you see, is the difference between science and religion. Science is the search for answers based upon verifiable evidence. Religion is the steadfast insistence that one has the answers, no matter the lack of evidence.

As to abusive and obnoxious, I have been niether in this thread. Perhaps you can't tell the difference between facts and abuse?

Posted by JayWalton on October 5, 2008 at 1:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe that if there is a creator, he has never and will never take action or intervene with humans lives. He simply exist in your mind if you choose to believe.

The reason I believe this is if there is a God, why would he allow some things to happen on earth that have happened? When a small child is violently murdered or butchered, people say "God needed another little angel in heaven". That’s BULL. if God needed another angel why would he allow this future angel to suffer such an agonizing and painful death. Why not just take her the night before the violent death occurs? Take her peacefully in her sleep. Its because he takes no action if he exist. If you follow world politics you know thousands of children die each year in very horrific ways. Why? I challenge you to look a starving 1 year old baby in the eyes and tell them ”this is what God wants”.

Why are drug addicted babies born to crack head mothers yet some happily married couples can never have children of their own?

Ever heard the expression “God works in mysterious ways?” Think about that. This statement basically lets you write everything off that happens as Gods will. No matter how bad.

Posted by donny on October 5, 2008 at 7:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I look to God for comfort and joy. He comforts me in time of sorrow and i thank him in times of joy for he gave me those also.
As for teaching creationism in schools it is purely a religous outlook. Now that religous teachings are allowed in school that should be where creationism is taught.
Me personally i believe in both. They can both be accepted and not necessarily be at peace with each other.
The most basic fact most pundits try to debate is how did god create the eath in 7 days. Who is to say what a day is to God. It could be a million even a billion years. We do not know.

Posted by wbarloww on October 5, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So if the scientists can't answer the questions, then why attempt to exclude any option. If you can't prove your theory of how man got here and why there are different races, then you have to accept anything is possible.

Posted by wbarloww on October 5, 2008 at 9:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

donny,

There are many on the intelligent design side that hold to the concept that what is a day to God. You are correct in the thought. Remember that the story was written at a time when you had people that could not understand concepts of millions of years. It would be like discussing the concepts of the doppler theory in relation to the microscopic neutron scattering principles in nuclear chain reactions.

Posted by dalai-llama on October 5, 2008 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"So if the scientists can't answer the questions, then why attempt to exclude any option."

Here's the true story of creation:

The universe came into being one million years ago when the All-Clown pulled a collection of silk scarves from His Motley Hat. When He spoke, the scarves became the heavens and the earth and man. We were created to spread the All-Clown's perfect message of love and laughter. Seltzer water and cream pies are his sacrament, and you will find his priests spreading the word through the Ringling Brothers circus.

There is just as much evidence to support my theory as there is to support yours.

Let me say that again: THERE IS JUST AS MUCH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY THEORY AS THERE IS TO SUPPORT YOURS (which is to say, none at all.)

If we are to teach your version of creationism, please give me ONE good reason why a nation where ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL UNDER THE LAW shouldn't also teach the All-Clown origin?

"...then you have to accept anything is possible."

I am glad that you and I can agree on the possible reality of the All-Clown. It is important to hear the words and read your program so that when you die and find yourself standing before His Red Shoes of Judgment, you will be granted access to eternal life under The Big Top.

How soon do you think we should start teaching the scientifically-valid Clown Design Theory to our kids?

Posted by qquixi on October 5, 2008 at 11:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a Pagan polytheist, I don't want any religion taught in public schools there are just to many different doctrines, none better or worst except for their abilty to hate each other. I feel it is the ethical and moral jurisdiction of the parents, family and their spiritual adviser to teach their children about traditions, faith and heritage. I taught mine to be respectful, tolerant and open-minded to others beliefs, to search out the awnsers to any questions they may have. To find their own truth.

Everyone should check out this film
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Posted by dr__dawggy on October 5, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"As a Pagan polytheist, I don't want any religion taught in public schools "

-----
I am a Christian monotheist and I agree with you on this point.

Posted by qquixi on October 5, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Now isn't that nice
we agree to disagree

Posted by donny on October 5, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wbarloww i haven't a clue what you are talking the conception i rendered was from a Dr. Weir at Hardin simmons back in the 70's. He also stated that Jesus Christ was the only son of God but he may not only have been Jesus Christ. Along the same lines as define a day.

Posted by dr__dawggy on October 5, 2008 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Now isn't that nice
we agree to disagree
----
If you are referring to my post...I AGREE with you. Religion does not belong in the public schools.

Posted by hspower2003 on October 5, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That's a strong movie quixi, but i'll hang on to my faith in Jesus...The valid points about money and greed, I do agree with. I cannot believe that the evil in man can be removed by simply removing the money system, and putting him into a fully furnished system.

Posted by lifeson1 on October 5, 2008 at 7:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When we're all on our death beds, we just better HOPE that we were all correct in our beliefs. You will know when that day arrives. I will too. The thought of a "hell" is scary. Religion is so beaten into us, we start to believe in these things. Now even as an adult I have a hard time making a descision on my own. I read the obituaries sometimes and wonder when the article says, "..he went to go be with his lord and savior.." did he really? Is this old man really in Heaven? Is he in Hell? Or is his energy just floating through space and time waiting for another physical body to get in to? Images of what Hell might be like go through my mind. What will be there? Your worst fears? Spiders? Horrendous torturing around the clock? We cannot imagine in the human mind what was here before Earth. Try to sit and thing of something "always existing". How can that be possible? Even a god had to have a starting point. Our minds are blocked from imagining this. Please try it.

Posted by wild_bill on October 5, 2008 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ever thought that Creationists, by definition, must be racists? Whoa! you say. Not you? Yep. If you belive GOD made us all different; all the seperate races, etc, male & female, then GOD is the source of racism AND sexism! HE made us different so HE must have wanted us to BE different and STAY different. Therefore, if we ARE different in the sight of GOD, that means someone has to be higher and someone lower, just as Man is above animals and the angels are above us, with GOD above all of creation.

On the otherhand, I have to admit that the thought of Evolution comforts me when in line at WalMart surrounded by all those obvious less evolved primates.

Folks, it plain does not matter. We are what we are, whether expressly created by GOD or evolved without Divine intervention or evolved creations of GOD.

Overall I agree with Dr_Dawggy and quixi's on this matter. Don't teach ANYONE's religion in a public schools using my tax dollars. Teachers have enough trouble trying to teach science, math, reading, writing and history. Don't throw the burden of explaining something that relies on fath on their shoulders.

Posted by ddawkins71 on October 5, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

wbarloww, you ask: "if the scientists can't answer the questions, then why attempt to exclude any option"
Because science requires demonstrable evidence, whereas religion does not. Once again, in simplest terms...
Science = the search for answers based upon evidence.
Religion = the dogged insistence that one knows all the answers, despite a complete lack of evidence.

Posted by pugsv on October 5, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

,,,,,,,,It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Posted by stateofmind on October 6, 2008 at 4:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Anyone ever look up the word infidel? There seems to be no lack of abbundance of such depravity.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on October 8, 2008 at 12:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree Ramps.