Posted by Fordsandguns on August 16, 2008 at 1:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'll join in the prayer. This is what America needs!

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 16, 2008 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"We are in mortal danger here in our beloved America because of our apathy"
No, we're in mortal danger because idiotic zealots like Bush think some imaginary being talks to them and wants them in charge, and tells them to attack innocent countries. We're in danger because other zealots in those countries think another imaginary being is telling them to kill anybody who doesn't believe in the same imaginary beings they do. A little MORE apathy would solve those problems!!

Posted by saltydog on August 16, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No, we're in mortal danger in America because of "false hopes" Obama and socialism. Jeremiah Wright, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Al Gore, and the far left kooks. And Iran who wants to vaporize Israel.

Posted by jesusnut2 on August 16, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins71,
Too bad you couldn't have been in one of the Twin Towers on 911 when one of your Imaginary Suicidal Muslems killed 1000's. How soon we forget!!! If you want to stick your head in the sand and play like they don't want to destroy you, go right ahead. But please don't try to keep the rest of us from defending ourselves. Not sure how this got turned into THIS from "Please Pray for America", but I will sure be on my knees to pray that the rest of us "Wake up and turn to GOD!"

Posted by JarHead on August 16, 2008 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The 'faithful' have been doing the same thing forever. They keep getting the same results. It is their cohort that fills our courts and prisons not unbelievers.

Education has far more positive effect on success and moral behavior than does prayer. But, prayer is the easier than wisdom. And once prayed, they believe they have relieved themselves of all responsibility for the outcome.

If you really want to make a difference, educate yourself and your kids and make sure education is top priority to your community and nation.

Posted by izitdtruth on August 16, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins---"A little MORE apathy would solve those problems!!" Yeah, boy, that's all we need---a little more apathy. All we need to solve the problems of this country that was founded and grounded and grew on the belief by MOST citizens in the ONE true God is believing in another god, many other gods, or NO god.
Bubba, you ain't seen any problems like you would see if Almighty God took His protective hand off this nation of ours. I am sorry if that sounds less than politically correct or narrow-minded, but MY God is just that way!
AND, you know something? HE loves YOU in spite of your attitude toward Him!

Posted by izitdtruth on August 16, 2008 at 10:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

JarHead---Psalm 111: 10---"The fear of the Lord beginning of wisdom...." That is the source of TRUE wisdom!
If you don't get it---better get it before it's too late! HE loves you whether you get it or not, but He will let you have your way and live without Him forever.

Posted by apricottx on August 16, 2008 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I wouldn't worry too much about Israel, after all they have almost 200 nukes themselves.

Posted by DB on August 16, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No, prayer is NOT what we need. We need a leader that can see what is happening and do something about it. Bush is NO LEADER. He does what he wants to do and he will let the next person figure a way out of the mess.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 16, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Too bad you couldn't have been in one of the Twin Towers on 911 when one of your Imaginary Suicidal Muslems killed 1000's"
Ooooh, the irony of a crackpot calling themselves "jesusnut" wishing death on someone! I won't even bother to address the foolish allegation that I ever claimed the terrorists were imaginary, rather than the made-up deity they thought ordered them to commit their barbarous acts.
"AND, you know something? HE loves YOU in spite of your attitude toward Him!"
*yawn*...yeah, sure. Add $4.50 to that, and I can get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's. At least that'd have some real value.

"Bubba, you ain't seen any problems like you would see if Almighty God took His protective hand off this nation of ours."
Sister, you haven't a clue what I've seen.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 16, 2008 at 2:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, and as to your other statement, "jesusnut"...

"I will sure be on my knees"

Well, that IS the proper positioning and posture for a slave.

Posted by Gillett on August 16, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins71, chill out, duck. You make some valid points about religious fanaticism, and I agree. But I disagree with your characterization of Bush as an "idiotic zealot" only because he's not. If you compare all Presidents, they're all spouting some form of zealotry at one time or other. Even Clinton Godded a lot when it suited the political winds. Obama says he's a "very Christian" man, and Carter.... now THAT was fanaticism!

Like Rap music, religious expression is legal and fine until it reaches the point of fanaticism. And the only fanaticism I see that should REALLY concern anyone here is the kind we're fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Posted by wild_bill on August 16, 2008 at 3:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The people who are likely to pray were already praying. The ones who don't believe cannot be forced to believe until prayer is all that is left to them.

Listening to some of you reminds me of joke about the atheist and the grizzley bear. http://wilk4.com/humor/humorc21.htm

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 16, 2008 at 3:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I disagree with your characterization of Bush as an "idiotic zealot" only because he's not."
Then explain his "god wants me to be President" comment, or his blind insistence upon legitimizing a form of segregation based upon his religious views.

"Even Clinton Godded a lot when it suited the political winds"
Point taken...but his "godding up" didn't cost 4,000 of our military members their lives, nor did it seek to deny a segment of the population equality under the law.

"the only fanaticism I see that should REALLY concern anyone here is the kind we're fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq."
We've got that same sort right here, only in a different flavor. Same motivation, hate. Different targets.

Posted by justabeliever on August 16, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It amazes me that when anyone writes something professing a belief in God, especially Jesus, that a tirade of bitterness is unleased toward that person. I want to thank Wanda for asking us to pray for our country. You don't have to go any further than this site to see that we are in a battle between good and evil!
To ddawkins I would just ask, what if you are wrong and there really is a God that loves you and provides eternal life with Him if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour? It is the truth, and the truth is the truth whether or not you choose to believe it.

Posted by JarHead on August 16, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...I would just ask, what if you are wrong..."

Believing just to be on the so-called safe side is not faith. Accepting a god story and salvation to avoid a burnin' is not believing. It is mindless cowardice and brought up when the faithful realize they are out of reasons to believe.

Posted by justabeliever on August 16, 2008 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't say anything about believing to avoid burning, and yes, it does take faith to believe, and its far from being on the safe side when we're willing to put up with mindless criticism. I'm sorry you have faith to believe in untruth.

Posted by keitht87 on August 16, 2008 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How about those who want to pray pray and those who don't don't. If everyone just lived and let live, we'd be living in much better world.

Posted by justabeliever on August 16, 2008 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No one, including God forces anyone to pray. We all have free-will to choose to believe or not. Its just that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believe in him should not perish, but will have everlasting life." The world includes all of us. I go back to my original post on this subject, when I expressed there is always a venomous tirade against anyone that talks about their faith on this board. If nothing else, I think that point is proven. I am not angry at those of you who don't agree with my views. Your argument is with God, not me.

Posted by ropers40 on August 17, 2008 at 12:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This story strikes me as nothing more than Christians believing they are right about everything, just as some Muslims believe jihad is acceptable.
If people would study history before making such wild claims they would see what has happened to any nation that was based on some form of religious persecution.
Telling people that they should pray is nothing more than religious persecution of people that do not believe as they do.
Religion is a great thing as long as it is not used to dictate what one group believes.

Posted by Fordsandguns on August 17, 2008 at 2:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ropers40. I didn't see where the author TOLD any one to pray. She ASKED. And even had you been told, no one is holding a gun to your head and making you. As justabeliever said, we all have free will. So it is your choice. On another note, I also agree with justabeliever on the "tirade of bitterness". Whenever someone expresses their belief in God they are attacked. They are told how stupid and wrong they are for their belief. Why? There is no reason to attack someone because they have different beliefs than you! Those that believe differently say that Christians want to force their beliefs on everyone else. But then they turn around and tell someone they shouldn't believe because THEY don't. Keitht87 has it right, those who don't believe don't and those that do do. And leave it there.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 4:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Simply agreeing to disagree is impossible when people are fighting tooth and nail to coopt the machinery of the state and use its power to enforce their will on the general populace. (You need look no further than the web site listed in the original letter for an example of this, by the way.) People who think they are the divine agents of the supernatural God of the universe are surprisingly unwilling to compromise when it comes to carrying out His eternal agenda.

"Leave everyone alone to do what they want" is the solution that those of us who are atheists would prefer. Unfortunately, it is impossible to divorce faith from politics in America. Religion, by its very nature, is a uniquely effective mechanism for serving up HUGE, unswervingly-loyal demographic blocks, and doing so in a way that (generally) short-circuits critical thought by hitting us straight in the emotional programming we soaked up as kids. Politicians know this; the church knows this. Everyone has a back that needs to be scratched and an agenda that needs to be pushed, and the Kingdom of God is the ends that justifies all means.

Ultimately, of course, religion will adapt itself to the ever-changing society it serves. It always has. In the meantime, the same topics are going to generate the same threads with the same posters saying the same stuff, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, world without end, amen. People who don't want their prayers subjected to cynical public criticism should probably consider praying in their closets rather than on Total Request Live or "a very special episode" of American Idol.

Posted by qquixi on August 17, 2008 at 6:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

What I can't understand is why some people spend so much time and energy (proselytizing) trying to make me believe in something that I believe is part myth/fiction.

I have read the Bible and it has some real history in it no doubt, IMHO the rest was put together by devotee's of the messiah, as foretold by the prophets of the hebrew scriptures. I hold this opinion for other sacred writings(Torah, Koran etc.)

I do believe in a supreme being/god and that people have a soul/spirit. I just don't believe that any of the established religions have all of the answers. Most think theirs is the only true way, and teach other creeds are wrong/false and sometimes evil and should be stopped or fought against. To me they can't all be right, but they all can be wrong. I am a moral, ethical, concerned, and loving person that hates no one. However I'm not infallible and I learn from mine/others mistakes. Freedom of religion allows everyone to believe/worship or not in their own way. For now I worship and have a relationship with deity in my own personal way.

"Live and Let Live" Jefferson Starship

You been holding back
And I know you're afraid to feel
Some one hurt you long ago
And the wounds just did not heal

You never shed a tear
You had to keep control
So the wounds kept spreading
Until they got down in your soul

Don't you think it's time
Time to forgive
Leave the past behind
Live and let live

Been holding onto anger
Now it's got a hold on you
And bitterness keeps growing
Affecting everything you do
Time to break the chains
You could slip them off today
It's time to make some changes
Before your whole life slips away

Don't you think it's time
Time to forgive
Leave the past behind
Live and let live

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 17, 2008 at 8:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"To ddawkins I would just ask, what if you are wrong and there really is a God that loves you and provides eternal life with Him if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?"
If there was, there would be some proof of it. I'm willing to take that tiny chance. I hate to break it to you, but deities are a construct of man's, not vice versa.

"It is the truth, and the truth is the truth whether or not you choose to believe it."
A truth can be proven. Go for it. Demonstrate your proof. I'll wait.

Posted by justabeliever on August 17, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The proof is in the life of every believer. If you refuse to believe, that is entirely up to you, and you will not see the proof. Just don't try to tell me what is true or not true in my life. Again, it seems ok for some people to bash Christians, but if we try to share our faith we get blasted for trying to "force" something on people. This is my last post on this subject. God bless.

Posted by JarHead on August 17, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Aw dang it. Justabeliever quit just as we were about to get the concrete proof of the existence of supernatural for the very first time in all history.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Justabeliever,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Christians I have known who walk that narrow path. I recognize the importance that faith has for some people. That's fine with me. Sharing that faith with others is fine with me, and I don't mind Christianity using its influence to change our culture. If y'all want to form supper clubs and write letters to get Ellen taken off the air, get after it. I'll write my own letters, and that is an appropriate venue for Christianity to use its majority influence.

Government is not.

I am in this thread first because I have a huge problem with the fact that this letter is just another thinly-veiled attempt to to equate Christianity with patriotism. Every salvo in the obnoxious, increasingly-militant campaign to convince the public that Christianity has sole claim to patriotism makes me want to take a cheese grater to my eyelids. America is freedom, particularly freedom of religion. Being American does not mean being Christian. Christianity is not America.

Secondly, I also have a huge problem with Christianity using its influence (its tax-exempt influence, mind you) to force government to adopt policies that are purely religious. The prohibition of gay marriage, for example, is a perfect example of a current, ongoing attempt by Christianity to unduly influence government; it is a blatant misuse of the power of the state to force non-Christians to abide by a purely-Christian belief. If Christianity would stay in its box, we could all get along just fine. We don't have a problem until it starts trying to substitute dogma for meaningful sex education in our public schools, use His holy name to stomp on minority rights, or roll back the clock two hundred years on basic science.

When you (Christianity, not you in particular) attempt to make personal faith public policy, it is no longer personal faith. Public criticism becomes fair game. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen (and by "kitchen" I of course mean "loudly trying to solicit money for the express purpose of influencing the judiciary".)

Posted by blueevo on August 17, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

DB wrote: Bush is NO LEADER. He does what he wants to do and he will let the next person figure a way out of the mess.

I believe you stayed up too late before you wrote this...but we all understand that you meant Clinton. You're forgiven.

Posted by blueevo on August 17, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

dalai-llama wrote: The prohibition of gay marriage, for example, is a perfect example of a current, ongoing attempt by Christianity to unduly influence government; it is a blatant misuse of the power of the state to force non-Christians to abide by a purely-Christian belief.

or...like gays trying to influence government to force Christians to abide by a purely gay agenda: example; if I don't want to hire a gay person because of my belief system, I'm probably going to get sued, or because of the liberal government body, my kids have to learn about evolution and the homosexual lifestyle as a possible alternative because if the school don't teach it, they may lose their funding.etc, etc...

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

1) "... example; if I don't want to hire a gay person because of my belief system, I'm probably going to get sued..."

In much the same way that you are probably going to get sued if you refuse to hire a black person because of your belief system. It is in the best interests of our society to prevent discrimination, and our labor laws reflect that.

Incidentally, I don't believe that gays are a protected class when it comes to non-governmental hiring (yet), but I don't feel like researching it right now. If they're not, they will be. When that happens, yes, exercising bigotry in your hiring practices will get you sued. Sorry, dude. Find a Klan buddy and you can commiserate about the unfairness of it all.

2) The public school system teaches evolution because it is scientific fact, as firmly established as the atomic model or our understanding of gravity. If you don't want them learning science, pull them out of school and teach them whatever you want at home. PLEASE pull them out of school and teach them whatever you want at home. My kid will need someone to flip his burgers and wash his car, so I'd like to ensure that our society maintains a steady of flow of youngsters who think that the sun revolves around the earth, man lived with the dinosaurs, and babies are found under cabbage leaves.

3) Homosexuality is a possible alternative lifestyle in the United States of America in the year 2008. Get over it, move to Iran, or pull your kids out of school. Alternatively, you could go just BUCK WILD CRAZY and teach your kid that the morals your family holds come from a religious belief system that not everyone shares, that other Americans are entitled to religious freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and that grown-up adults can recognize that it's possible to consider someone else's behavior IMMORAL without making it ILLEGAL.

I know that sounds crazy.

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on August 17, 2008 at 4:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's time we stopped relying on our "Gods" and started looking around for ways to make things right ourselves. One thing that would help is to get off petroleum. Or at least reduce drastically our need for it to a point where we can be sustained from within our own perimeters. This might require the non free market step of restricting US produced petroleum to be sold only in the US, until the market can shift to renewable (Wind, Sun) power.

The Iraq wars are about oil, nothing more.

KIRBY

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 17, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

justacoward...typical fundie response. You can't demonstrate the proof I asked for, and yoou know it doesn't exist. Therefore, you post a garbled bit of sophomoric nonsense before fleeing with your tail tucked firmly between your legs.

Posted by blueevo on August 17, 2008 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"In much the same way that you are probably going to get sued if you refuse to hire a black person because of your belief system...Find a Klan buddy and you can commiserate about the unfairness of it all."

Hardly a comparison. There's nothing in the Bible (where I get me belief system) to make me want to discriminate against a black person (I have family members who are black) dude. And, what does the KKK have to do with gays? And don't tell me they are in the same battle...blacks ARE born that way!

Posted by blueevo on August 17, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The public school system teaches evolution because it is scientific fact"

FACT??? Where's the evidence...I'm still waiting to see the half-man half-ape piece somewhere. If evolution is a fact....why are apes not turning into people anymore? When did evolution stop and we started producing "after our own kind?" That's exactly what the Bible says, "everything will produce after it's own kind!" (paraphrase).

Posted by Abilene_Libertarian on August 17, 2008 at 6:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Opening up the auto market to lighter autos and trucks that may not satisfy the tough government crash standards, yet meet, or have been modified to meet, EPA standards would help cut overall fuel consumption, and would do far more to alleviate the strains on petroleum supply and world tensions than prayer ever will.

There must be hundreds of car and mini-truck models worldwide that would meet that criteria. Import taxes on foreign cars are a government gift to Detroit, and do nothing for the American driver but keep the cost of personal tranasportation high.

Mandating the safety of one's personal transport to oneself is not a legitimate function of Government.

KIRBY

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 7:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Hardly a comparison."

First, it is a perfectly apt comparison. The arguments that are today being used to deny gay rights are the same arguments that were used to deny blacks their rights back in the 60's, with a little more Bible-thumping thrown in for seasoning. Look at the rhetoric that surrounded Brown v. Board of Education or Loving v. Virginia. The same stuff was said, almost verbatim, right down to the hysterical bleating about activist judges overturning the will of the people.

Second, it doesn't matter if being gay is a choice. Doesn't matter a hill of beans. We can't vote away their civil rights any more than we can vote away the civil rights of people who choose to eat strawberry ice cream instead of vanilla.

Third, being gay isn't a choice. You already knew that because you and I both know that you didn't choose to be straight. That discussion has been beaten to death here; the relevant links are available with a couple of mouse-clicks.

The KKK comment was just a way for me to inject a touch of levity into my point that your socially-acceptable and theologically-hip bigotry against gays is just as ignorant and backward as the KKK's un-socially acceptable bigotry against pretty much everyone. Same logic... same arguments... same reasoning... headed for the same place:

your opinions will be reviled and history is going to mock you.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 7:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As to your next point:

It is painfully clear that you don't understand the first thing about evolution, and I am not feeling generous today.

Get a biology book and read it.

Posted by blueevo on August 17, 2008 at 7:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Evolution came from Darwin's study of Finches and scientists expounded on it to try and justify their evolution theory ie) apes from man.

Darwin's theory included several different species of Finches and they interbread to creat new Finches, a new species...ie) a new bread of Finches evolved, but they were still Finches!
Darwin's theory never include fish with feet.

Posted by huckster on August 17, 2008 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

whether you believe in "gay rights" or not is immaterial to the fact that equating a sexual orientation with the color of someone's skin is demeaning to those who suffered/suffer through ethnic bigotry.

make a point, but make it a valid one. that one doesn't cut the mustard.

Posted by robertwp on August 17, 2008 at 8:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"However, Jesus defeated that evil one at Calvary when he died and rose again and gave the keys of heaven and hell to us"

"The battle rages between good and evil in our land"

Which is it? Did Jesus defeat the evil one or does the battle still rage? If Jesus defeated the evil one then the battle has been won. If the battle is still on then the evil one hasn't been defeated.

This is just some more bad theology gibberish. The message of the letter is that we need to see it the way Ms. Murphree sees it and our problems will be over. In fact, our problems will be over when we start working to solve them and quit trying to simply pray over them and expecting them to magically disappear. Ms. Murphree offers no solution except prayer. That is foolish. At this point it is like observing a fire while holding a water hose and praying that somehow the fire will go out.

Posted by pcdrs on August 17, 2008 at 9:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here is a good test for the christian folks, spit in one hand, pray in the other, see which one fills up first.

blueevo-you don't know much of anything about anything do you. You just keep proving that to everyone.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 11:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Blueevo,

The bit about the finches is right, but the idea of evolution had been around for a while. What Darwin did was propose not evolution itself, but a mechanism to explain it. Darwin's book didn't include fish with feet because they were not part of his observations, but his theory provided a way to explain why we have fish with feet.

To answer your earlier question, apes and humans share a common ancestor. Apes themselves are not the ancestors of humanity, the ancestors of the apes are. At some point in the dim recesses of time, apes went left and humans went right. Apes today are not evolving into humans, they are evolving into whatever will come after the apes (or they won't be able to adapt in time and they'll just disappear.)

Posted by dalai-llama on August 17, 2008 at 11:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...equating a sexual orientation with the color of someone's skin is demeaning to those who suffered/suffer through ethnic bigotry."

The fact that you think being equated with being gay is "demeaning" is more than enough evidence to support my point.

Why is it worse to discriminate against someone because of the color of his skin than it is to discriminate against him because of his orientation?

Posted by huckster on August 17, 2008 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

where in my post did i say anything about it being demeaning? try to read into these posts what you want, but it doesn't mean that it's there.

equating discrimination based on race with discrimination based on sexual orientation is the old "comparing apples to oranges."

whether or not a person is born sexually attracted to the same sex or not is immaterial. folks in this situation still have the ability to choose whether or not to act on those feelings. a black man doesn't choose the pigmentation of his skin.

so have a debate. just make it an honest debate.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 12:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"...folks in this situation still have the ability to choose whether or not to act on those feelings."

Now we're getting to it.

Why should they not act on those feelings, Huckster?

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Corollary to the above:

A black man can choose whether or not to marry a white woman. That is a behavior based on innate feelings, exactly analogous to a gay man marrying another man based on innate feelings.

Both behaviors are a choice. Should mixed-race marriage be illegal?

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Kinsey scale describes people who are completely heterosexual as 0 and people who are completely homosexual as 6. This scale was used to define a person's sexuality and Kinsey’s study proved that it wasn’t always a black and white issue (pardon the pun). Some people fluctuate on this scale during different points of their lives. Some don’t. Some people stay around 2, 3 or 4. I don't believe that a 2 or a 3 or a 4 can fully understand that human sexuality is something that we are born with because, from their perspective, it is always a choice. From the perspective of a 0 or a 6, suggesting that sexuality is a choice makes no sense at all. That is the problem. When you apply Kinsey's science to this online discussion you can see that not only was Kinsey correct but that it is very difficult to explain to someone who has bisexual feelings (no matter how prevalent or suppressed those feelings may be) that for many, human sexuality isn't a choice even though it is for them. I do believe that 0’s and 6’s are born that way just as 1’s, 2’s, 3’s, 4’s and 5’s are. The Kinsey study shows that human sexuality is much more complicated than the Bible suggests. Some people easily make a choice. Some people can’t make that choice. When science has proven the Bible to be “mistaken” on certain issues, we have adapted our interpretation of the Bible. Things such as the moon having its own light, bats being birds, the sun moving and the earth standing still, the earth being flat and rabbits chewing their cud are all examples of statements made in the Bible that we chalk up to a pre-scientific understanding of the world. Remember that it was people like you and me that wrote the Bible. They suffered the same limitations that we all do. It is time to apply the same leniency in our interpretation of Biblical teachings on homosexuality that we give to Biblical teachings about leprosy and men wearing their hair long.

1 Corinthians 11:14 (ESV)
14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him.

Leviticus 13:9-11 and 45-46 (ESV)
9 When a man is afflicted with a leprous disease, he shall be brought to the priest, 10 and the priest shall look. And if there is a white swelling in the skin that has turned the hair white, and there is raw flesh in the swelling, 11 it is a chronic leprous disease in the skin of his body, and the priest shall pronounce him unclean.

45 "The leprous person who has the disease shall wear torn clothes and let the hair of his head hang loose, and he shall cover his upper lip and cry out, 'Unclean, unclean.' 46 He shall remain unclean as long as he has the disease. He is unclean. He shall live alone. His dwelling shall be outside the camp.

Leviticus 18:22 (ESV)
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 18, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

blueevo, evolution isn't taught as fact, it is taught as the most likely theory. Hence the term THEORY of evolution. Can it be proven? No, it cannot. Nobody was around to document the process. Can "creation" be proven? No, and for the same reason. The difference, (and what a crushing difference it is for the "creation" sheeple), is that there's evidence to back up evolution; while creation is just a myth with ZERO evidence aside from an ancient, much altered and edited book of antiquated fairy tales.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Can it be proven? No, it cannot."

Umm.. yeah. It has. You're falling for the creationist bait and switch with the meaning of "theory."

To the extent that any scientific fact can be proven, evolution has. Fossils and DNA have been around longer than microscopes, and they provide more than adequate proof of the fact of evolution. Speciation and evolution have also been directly observed by modern science. That life on earth evolved and is evolving is not in dispute. At all. The contention surrounds the precise mechanisms and forces that drove and shaped the change.

Don't be fooled. Evolution is one of the most well-supported, well-rounded and USEFUL ideas in science.

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 18, 2008 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Don't be fooled. Evolution is one of the most well-supported, well-rounded and USEFUL ideas in science."

According to who? Your opinion? Even scientists acknowledge that Evolution has it's questions that can't/haven't been answered. How can you place a blanket statement like that on it?

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"The difference … is that there's evidence to back up evolution; while creation is just a myth with ZERO evidence aside from an ancient, much altered and edited book of antiquated fairy tales."

ddawkins types the truth. I would only add that the “edited book of antiquated fairy tales is” also a huge source of disagreement and dispute even to those who believe that what it says is true. I, as a Christian, agree with his assertion. I don’t see how a Christian could disagree with him unless a certain amount of brainwashing had occurred. Christianity is a matter of faith and faith alone. Jesus never commanded us to look at the facts and apply our logic. Instead, he told us to ignore the facts and dismiss our so-called logic because the reality he was teaching was not the reality of facts and logic. He said not to worry about what you will eat and drink and you will be fed. He said to not spend time working to clothe yourself and you will be clothed. He said not to accumulate more than you need today because it will only ruin or be stolen. He said that when someone sues you the appropriate response is to give more than the judge demands. He said to respond to curses with blessings. He said that you are better off to be hated and persecuted than you are to be loved. He said that the more you are hated, the happier you should be. This didn’t make any sense when he said it and doesn’t make any sense today. It defies logic and experience. To apply our common knowledge to those statements would make them seem to be bad advice. To try to apply fact to faith is to completely miss the point. If you are trying to use facts to support your faith then you are playing a fool’s game.

I, as a Christian, don't want matters of faith taught in the schools. It frightens me to think that some of you might be trying to teach such matters. The schools are public institutions and I realize that everyone does not hold to the same faith or the same interpretations as I do privately. That is even true in my church. Teach your children matters of faith at home by example. In that environment it actually has some meaning. Anywhere else it will be perceived as foolishness. It was designed to be that way.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Even scientists acknowledge that Evolution has it's questions that can't/haven't been answered."

Yes. Yes, that's true. That's why (in the line that immediately preceded your quote) I said, "The contention surrounds the precise mechanisms and forces that drove and shaped the change."

As to this:

"According to who? Your opinion?"

Here ya go:

Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations

Academy Of Science Of The Royal Society Of Canada
Alabama Academy Of Science
American Anthropological Association
American Anthropological Association (2000)*
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1923)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1972)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (1982)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (Commission on Science Education)
American Association For The Advancement Of Science (2002) *
American Association Of Physical Anthropologists
American Astronomical Society (2000) *
American Geophysical Union
American Geophysical Union (1999)*
American Institute Of Biological Sciences
American Astronomical Society
American Society Of Biological Chemists
American Chemical Society
American Geological Institute
American Psychological Association
American Physical Society
American Society Of Parasitologists
Association for Women Geoscientists (1998) *
Australian Academy of Science *
Botanical Society of America *
California Academy Of Sciences
Ecological Society of America (1999) *
Genetics Society of America *
Geological Society Of America
Geological Society of America (2001) *
Geological Society of Australia (1995) *
Georgia Academy Of Science (1980)
Georgia Academy Of Science (1982)
History of Science Society *
Iowa Academy Of Science (1982)
Statement Of The Position Of The Iowa Academy Of Science On Pseudoscience (1986)
Iowa Academy Of Science (2000) *
Kentucky Academy Of Science
Kentucky Academy Of Science (1999) *
Kentucky Paleontological Society Statement on the Teaching of Evolution (1999) *
Louisiana Academy Of Sciences
National Academy Of Sciences (1972)
National Academy Of Sciences (1984)
National Academy Of Sciences (1998) *
North American Benthological Society (2001) *
North Carolina Academy Of Science
North Carolina Academy Of Science (1997)

That's just a quick c & p from here: http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/...
where you can find the full statements of each organization.

(It's also only half the list. The full list of scientific organizations that support evolution won't fit within the fairly-generous space limits of a single post.)

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 18, 2008 at 12:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

dalai lama, I'm not saying evolution is wrong. I tend to believe it's the best possible option out there. I certainly don't believe for a moment that some invisible man just waved his hand and made everything, that's childish and silly. What I'm saying is that while we have pretty solid evidence that points to the support of the theory of evolution, it cannot be solidly proven anymore than creation can. It's strength lies in the huge repository of evidence supporting it, as opposed to a dusty old book of hokum fairy tales.

So, no...I'm not falling for the supposed creationist definition of the word theory. I'm well-versed in the actual meaning, and how it applies and fits. Evolution is NOT proven, but is far closer to being proven than so-called "creation".

Posted by jeffcaseltine on August 18, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I found most of the comments funny or at least entertaining except when someone tried to equate "extremist" Christianity in the U.S with extremist Islam in Afghanistan and Iraq. That is laughable. When was the last time a group of Christians kidnapped a Muslim, put on hoods, turned on the camcorder and while screaming "God is great!" sawed his head off? When has a Christian in America dressed his son or daughter in an explosive vest and sent them into a crowd of innocents to blow them up? I could go on, but hopefully my point is made. There is no comparison

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 18, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The muslims and the christians have equally bad histories of sectarian violence and bloodshed. The "christians" have throttled it back for the last few centuries, but there was a time when their acts ov violence eclipsed the current ones by muslim extremists. Ever heard of the Inquisition, where Jews and muslims were rounded up en masse and tortured until they confessed to the "crime" of being non-"christian", and then executed? How about the Salem "trials", where women were falsely accused of "witchcraft", tortured and executed, without benefit of defense? The comparisons are there, if you're honest.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Evolution is NOT proven, but is far closer to being proven than so-called "creation"."

I didn't mean to imply that I think your understanding is childish or silly at all; you're one of the best regular voices on this topic. The point I was trying to make is that evolution is as firmly established as the model of the atom, the theories of light, or our explanation of the life cycle of stars. You don't see fundamentalists calling basic astronomy "just a theory" or protesting the use of prisms in public schools. As far as anything in science can be "proven," evolution is. It is as much fact as anything else taught in high school science.

I grant that there is always room for doubt, of course. Jesus could poof down here on a unicorn tomorrow and bust out with how he and Dad tricked us all with those corny fossils. It's not likely, but it's technically possible. That room for doubt is one of the main reasons science has moved away from calling things "laws." Nothing is 100% certain, but those what-if discussions are not the realm of science; they are the realm of philosophy and theology.

Not coincidentally, those unprovable "what-ifs" provide the space in which faith can sit side-by-side with science and everyone can benefit.

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 12:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Your Holiness,
What a load of left wing, God hating liberals you cited. Is that the best you can do? The fact that the list is so long says a lot about how weak the argument actually is. You lost me after the Alabama Academy of Science. Alabama? Alabama Indeed! You can’t be serious.

I choose to get my information from the Holy Bible as it was gloriously handed down from the hands of the one almighty God to the unworthy paws of King James the First of England, His humble servant, and if that same Bible says that the earth was created in 6 days followed by a day of golfing and light refreshments with Adam, Eve and their two-legged serpent caddy named Lou, then that is all I need. You can take your monkeys and your favorite little bacterium and fly off to Isla Isabela and talk evolution until the Dies Irae clamps down on your little party for all I care. I say, “Good Riddance”.

I am not interested in your foolish theories and your idiotic hypotenuses. I have no use for them. I have the TRUTH!

(I just went ahead and posted this so that 90 percent of y’all won’t have to bother. It is time to consider how much thumping your Bibles actually will be able to take on this issue.)

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 18, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Robert...excellent job. The sad part is, too many sheeple won't get it.

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 18, 2008 at 1:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Robert, you're right again. This version sounds much more believable and substantiated. Those of us who don't believe it should get our heads checked out. ??????

"According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory."

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 1:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins,
The "sheeple" are already not getting it.

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 18, 2008 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

robert, we get it.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 18, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Reagan_Bush,

The Big Bang theory has absolutely nothing to do with evolution.

The two are, quite literally, light years apart.

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Reagan Bushed,
You do realize that "sheeple" is not a brand to be coveted?

You were very quick to stand up and take it on.

That was priceless.

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 18, 2008 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I choose to get my information from the Holy Bible as it was gloriously handed down from the hands of the one almighty God to the unworthy paws of King James the First of England, His humble servant, and if that same Bible says that the earth was created in 6 days followed by a day of golfing and light refreshments with Adam, Eve and their two-legged serpent caddy named Lou, then that is all I need."

Seems to me Robert was referencing the earlier years. I was simply reinforcing how credible the alternatives are..........????

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 18, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I understand that is what you who believe we all came from the sneeze of a pine needle call those who see your belief as crazy. It is what it is bobby.

Posted by JarHead on August 18, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Origins of the the universe = evolution? That looks like evidence for the half monkey half man it lies (the man half) and has a keyboard to play with.

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sheeple (Reagan Bush),
Tell us more. I am almost interested. Maybe we could shoot for convinced or maybe even bored silly. You seem to be a black hole of information. I think you might have accidentally terminated this discussion with a swan dive into utter confusion.

You are not a scientist, are you?

Posted by sauria on August 18, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Evolution is change, not origins. It's as real as gravity.

Posted by wildturkey on August 18, 2008 at 7:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What's funny to me in all of this babble of Christianity vs Evolution, Creationism vs Evolution...etc...etc...is that none of you seem to be willing to propose or deem possible that all of this may be part of God's (or a God's) grand scheme of things on this Earth. Christianity teaches that God made Heaven and Earth but Christians seem to be unwilling to believe that God created Evolution which is part of this Earth's processes and is visible and provable in all living things around the globe as all living things "cope" with their surroundings. If God created everything, then all of this is simply a moot point...he created everything including evolution as a way for all living things to "cope"...we all evolve in our lives.

Posted by jeffcaseltine on August 18, 2008 at 7:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK ddawkins71, my question was "when was the last time Christians in America.." and you bring up the inquisition and Salem witch trials which were what..over 400 years ago? C'mon there is no Christian equivalent in America to the extremist Muslim in the Middle East "if you're honest."

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 8:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"What's funny to me in all of this babble" is why Christianity needs to be mentioned at all. We can talk about religion or we can talk about science. Talking about both at the same time is like whistling and eating peanut butter. Both are worthy endeavors but they shouldn’t be attempted at the same time.

Posted by wildturkey on August 18, 2008 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

...but Robertwp, if God created all, HE created ALL...PERIOD. Science is just a way to dig into what is going on in this world that God created.

Posted by robertwp on August 18, 2008 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wild Turkey,
If that is the case, then could you give me a list of scientists whose main area of expertise is "God" and His/Her influence on (fill in the blank)? No, you can’t. That would be theology and not science. They don’t mix.

Like I said, you're whistling and eating peanut butter.

Posted by wildturkey on August 18, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Robert, what does the Bible say that God created? It states that he created everything; therefore, every speck of dust, every molecule, every atom, every process that deals with every item on this Earth was created by God. Whether it be evolution, nuclear fusion, photosynthesis, diffusion, cell division and replication, continental shift and plate tectonics, all were created by God. Whether it be Biology, Psychology, Anthropology, Kinesiology or Proctology, all are man's attempt to study the Earth's processes that God has created from man and life itself to the Earth itself. Theology is man's attempt to study God and Religion.

God gave man the ability, capability and knowledge to embark on further understanding of the Earth and the Universe. All sciences are intertwined as they all study God's creations which does include Theology and The Bible.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 18, 2008 at 9:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"OK ddawkins71, my question was "when was the last time Christians in America.."
You want a more recent example? Eric Rudolph. Tim McVeigh. Fred Phelps. Need I go on?

"is no Christian equivalent in America to the extremist Muslim in the Middle East "
And as I plainly stated, the so-called "christians" have let up in recent history. But that does not change the fact that cumulatively, the muslims have a long way to go before they can touch the numbers racked up by "christianity".

Posted by whatif on August 18, 2008 at 11:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins, you forgot Jamestown.

Posted by Abilenedude077 on August 19, 2008 at 2:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Who cares about all that? Whether Islam is growing or not doesnt even matter. Most of us have a Christian legacy, unless for some reason some of us have elected to rebel against our parents' legacy and traditions. And that's another thing. Christianity taught us to maintain the values, the morality, and standards that our parents taught us. So often, I hear young people asserting their independence from antiquated "values" in support of their drug habit or alcohol. I'm in favor of honoring my parents, even as I approach middle age. Because it is right. Face it America. People used to listen to Jesus Christ's words here, and have lately abandoned them. Quit arguing. Quit rebelling against your parents. Forgive them if they abused you. Forgive them if they didnt teach you rightly. Re-establish a good and godly legacy within your own family. Believe in something worthy. Humanity all by itself doesnt solve problems. Communist Russia tried that. They needed God all along. And we sat under God's blessings for so long that we got spoiled. Then, many of you angry people decided you had a better plan. Well, you see where its going? I believe God can heal what ails us.

Posted by JarHead on August 19, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins could have added slavery and the slaughter of native Americans to the list - but you get the idea. Ideas like "Humanity all by itself doesnt solve problems." overlook the fact that all progress has been made outside of religion then hijacked by religions trying to take the credit. There would have been thousands more da Vinci's, Galileo's, Voltaire's and others like them without religions that burned them at the stake. Everything could have been done better without religion. As to the letter writers question, sure you can use this forum to express your call to prayer and to present your idea that that will somehow make life better. But remember, your idea has to compete with other ideas and be exposed to the fact that prayer does not work and that problems are not solved by reading just one book over and over. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

Posted by robertwp on August 19, 2008 at 8:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Abilenedude,
You sound panicked.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 19, 2008 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Who cares about all that?"
People with integrity.

"Most of us have a Christian legacy, unless for some reason some of us have elected to rebel against our parents' legacy and traditions"
And in your mind, that's the ONLY reason not to be a "christian"? Man, are you the product of a sheltered upbringing.

"Christianity taught us to maintain the values, the morality, and standards that our parents taught us"
And yet, as an atheist, I'm still a moral person with values. How is that possible?

"establish a good legacy within your own family. Believe in something worthy."
I have, and I do...just not your imaginary sky-man.

"I believe God can heal what ails us."
I already healed myself...I gave up the addictive and lethal drug called religion.

Posted by jeffcaseltine on August 19, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

slavery and slaughter of Indians...all of these examples are ancient history

Posted by JarHead on August 19, 2008 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Then there are to be counted the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis by the hand of Christian Bush saying: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did...Events aren't moved by blind change and chance..., but by ''the hand of a just and faithful God."

"And this is the mindset--or rather, the primitive fever-dream--that is now directing the actions of the greatest military power in the history of the world. There can be no doubt that Bush believes literally in the divine character of his mission. He honestly and sincerely believes that whatever "decision" forms in his brain--out of the flux and flow of his own emotional impulses and biochemical reactions, the flattery and cajolements of his sinister advisers, the random scraps of fact, myth and fabrication that dribble into his proudly undeveloped and incurious consciousness--has been planted there, whole and perfected, by God Almighty." --Chris Floyd, 'God made me do it, says St. George'

We don't need more of this or to hear how his 'faithful' followers think we should stop thinking and 'return' to ignoring their bloody ignorance self-selective views of the world.

Posted by wildturkey on August 19, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins71 wrote, "And yet, as an atheist, I'm still a moral person with values. How is that possible?"

It's possible because it is of man's essence (if you will) to live peacefully without war and malice. It's when rulers decide that they need "more" or when a religion needs to "help" those that are not of their belief system that wars break out. ddawkins, you are in the mindset that you are a moral person because it is the way you are but a christian would say that you are a moral person because of God's hand in your life regardless of your beliefs. My previous post would lead you to believe that I'm a devote christian but I am not...I was brought up that way. I see both sides equally, christian and atheist although I am not schooled well in atheist views. God or no God, it is still up to us to treat each other correctly as you allude to in your post ddawkins71

Posted by dalai-llama on August 19, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"...slavery and slaughter of Indians...all of these examples are ancient history..."

They only became ancient history when society restricted the power of the church. Christianity doesn't get to play those games anymore because western society has told it "no." Christianity, to its credit, has (mostly) accepted that and does a pretty good job of playing well with others.

What we are seeing in the Muslim world is a religion that has not been told "no" and still believes it should be entitled to control of the entire culture. The resulting power struggle gives rise to extremism, and the nutjobs turn the violence against the West and its cultural influence.

The only reason Christianity isn't putting people in the stocks for missing church and broadcasting it live via webcam is because of the separation of church and state. Which brings us full circle to the original letter: America is not a Christian nation. America should not be a Christian nation. We must preserve the freedom of religion that protects all of our beliefs.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 19, 2008 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DDawkins71, Dial back the hostility brother, it's tarnishing your credibility. Not all us Christians think religion should be the basis of gov't. In fact, those of us that were awake in history class realize that is the reason we are here in a place called America; to be free from the State Church.

In all our spirited debates of this issue I've also never once resorted to mocking your personal beliefs or claiming that MY way of believing was the ONLY way. What can I say? I'm not that arrogant and I don't have The Big Guy on speed dial to personally get the story straight from him. We all believe what we need to believe to get through this messed up life. None of us have the right to force those personal beliefs on anyone but none of us has the right to persecute anyone else's beliefs either.

In case you still haven't figured out who this is (and if that's the case, you're slipping), hello from NY!

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 19, 2008 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

" you are in the mindset that you are a moral person because it is the way you are but a christian would say that you are a moral person because of God's hand in your life regardless of your beliefs"
The difference being, I would be right, and they would be wrong.

"Not all us Christians think religion should be the basis of gov't."
Well, there almost has to be a handfull of reasonable ones. Don't let the millions of zealots out there corrupt the 11 or 12 of you that actually have minds and use them.

By the way, Voodoo...e-mail me.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 19, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, and voodoo? I still remember when YOU were among the ranks of the apostate, like me. I believe your favorite statament, (or at least my favorite statement of yours) was "I was Catholic, until I reached the age of reason."

Posted by pcdrs on August 19, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I was Catholic, until I reached the age of reason."

Absolutly great. Understanding that statement could lead to an enlightened life.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 19, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

pcdrs, that was a statement from a great buddy, co-worker, roommate, veteran, and all-around good guy. Abilene lost out when he moved to NY. He could come up with some Carlin-worthy material when he was agitated.

Posted by pcdrs on August 19, 2008 at 10:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins, If he has the time he should have some fun on these forums.

Posted by zoso on August 19, 2008 at 11:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins, jarhead, dalai-llama,and pcdrs what exactly is your axe to grind here. Between the four of you, you have posted over ONE THOUSAND posts combined calling Christians everything from "stupid", "sheeple", "myopic", "myth-worshippers", etc. Why? Do you think you are going to change someone's mind? Or do you think it's fun to screw with us "stupid Christians?" I think the latter.
Let me just say this, you guys may be right, there may not be a God, I have no proof that there is. On the other hand, there is no proof that there isn't. So why, I ask you, is it so important to you to belittle those of us who disagree with you? Trust me when I tell you that my faith is alot more important to me than your atheism is to you.
And I know you guys are just getting your jollies because you think that you are so superior and smarter than us "stupid sheeple", but believe me when I tell you that there are plenty of God-fearing people who are, believe it or not, smarter than you. Unfortunately, the sad thing is that not one of you believe that. You really believe that you are smarter than over two billion people. You, four morons from Abilene who apparently don't have anything better to do than go to the ARN page DAILY and share your views over and over and over. Jarhead told me it was his right to share his two cents, but does it have to be the same two cents every time? Is you guys atheism so all-encompassing that that is all you can talk about? Do you ever think about anything else? Let me help you guys out, the eight people who read these posts daily, KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL. Got it.

"Atheists suck!" Pope Benedict (just kidding, he really didn't say that).

Posted by Abilenedude077 on August 20, 2008 at 2:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's funny how the most anti-christians seem to be the most passionate about the topic, which could indicate some hurt feelings in the history. Maybe some wounded person crying out. I remember a time when I didnt believe in, or care much for God. I thought I was enjoying life. I certainly didnt have time to argue, belittle, and posture antagonistically against Christians. I was well-adjusted, emotionally, and let people live and believe as they wished. These men are obviously showing us their wounds. Pray for them. And let me remind you all that words show the content of your heart. Our Lord Jesus Christ said that and never were truer words. Christianity doesnt mean you any harm, despite whatever abusive history you might have had at the hands of those who called themselves Christians. At some point, we all have to grow up and see things for what they are. Abusing others is not going to heal your wounds. God is your healer

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 20, 2008 at 7 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"I know you guys are just getting your jollies because you think that you are so superior and smarter than us"
If that's what you think atheism is all about, I don't need to belittle you. You do a fine job of it all on your own.

"you, four morons from Abilene"
There's a fine "christian" sentiment for ya. How very Christ-like.

"Let me help you guys out, the eight people who read these posts daily, KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL. Got it."
If you dislike what we say, or the fact that we have the freedom to say it, don't read it. Got it?

Posted by JarHead on August 20, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Bwahahahah!, that tickled me.

Abilenedude077 said "It's funny how the most anti-christians seem to be the most passionate about the topic, which could indicate some hurt feelings in the history.....blah, blah.."

Can you say projection?

"Christianity doesnt mean you any harm, despite whatever abusive history you might have had at the hands of those who called themselves Christians."
Christianity doesn't mean you harm unless you think that oppression, and dogma are harmful. It doesn't mean you harm unless you think that it claims your nation for it's own and wants to use the government to establish it's dominion over the rights of women and other classes of people so that they must act out their lives in a 'Christian' manner.

"At some point, we all have to grow up and see things for what they are. Abusing others is not going to heal your wounds" You got that right.

But God is no answer to anything except to say that some will give up their lives and pass all opportunity, purpose and responsibility to a group that worships itself and claims that they will rejoice in heaven while watching anyone not inclined to see their invisible clothing burn for eternity.

Religious believers are those who would be atheist if only the king were. Oh, wait, he believes only in himself so, isn't God and atheist?

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 20, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jarhead wrote: "isn't god an atheist?"

I have a feeling he/she/it would be if they got a good look at what their adherents are doing in their name.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 20, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Zoso,

I'm assuming you missed my first post in this thread, where I said, "I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Christians I have known who walk that narrow path. I recognize the importance that faith has for some people. That's fine with me. Sharing that faith with others is fine with me, and I don't mind Christianity using its influence to change our culture."

I am not here to get my jollies (beyond the fact that posting here is one of my hobbies) and I'm not trying to make Christians feel bad. I'm just here to make the points that:

1. Christianity does not equal America.

2. Laws should not be based on any particular religion.

3. Education should be based in fact.

They're pretty straightforward, basic common-sense principles that don't conflict with Christian beliefs at all. If your faith sustains you and helps you love your neighbor, rock on. More power to you. As long as that faith is helping people instead of trying to dictate public policy, I have no problem with it.

(Mind you, I do reserve the right to be snippy and dismissive in response to posts that take that tone.)

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 20, 2008 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Abilenedude077 wrote: "God is your healer"
No, I am my healer. I don't need the crutch of religion to heal. I rely upon myself, my own inner strength, my natural resilience, and my sense of humor to heal. No imaginary deity had, or has anything to do with how I heal. Unlike you, I don't have to make up a way to heal. That's fake.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 20, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DD71. I STILL have my issues with the Pope and a great many of his minions. The day he carries a baby full term and delivers it NATURALLY, I'll be more than happy to hear his views on abortion. Until then, he and every other MAN needs to shut up and let that issue be debated by those with a vested interest i.e. WOMEN; religious or atheist, Dem, Rep or Ind.

That being said, I believe in God (Yaweh, Jehoveh, Zeus, Odin, Buddah, Shiva, Ralph) or whatever name you want to call He/She/It. My faith in the Creator is more important to me than a label bestowed by man (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc). When we start getting wrapped up in labels is where the problems start.

One of the most sage pieces of wisdom I've ever received came from my Old Testament professor right there at good ol' HSU. He invited us to read for ourselves and question for ourselves instead of sitting in the pew blithely nodding along with what the guy up on stage is telling us. Some churches will tell you to get the hell out if you dare question what is being presented. Doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Oh and DD71, Christianity's and Islam's zealots are about tied on the death toll now.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 20, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I know what you're saying about the ones who'll give you the old heave-ho for actually daring to use what's in your skull for more than hat stuffing, Voodoo.

What's always killed me, is all the zealots and fundies who scream that their deity is better endowed than someone else's deity. How is it they never figured out it's the same exact person/unicorn/flying spaghetti monster?

Posted by zoso on August 20, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sorry dalai-llama, I hadn't read your first post, my bad. And ddawkins, how again I'm I belittling myself? Oh yea, because I don't agree with you. I'm just a mere mortal though...and don't have super intelligence like you. And I didn't say that I thought atheism was about thinking you are smarter than everyone, I said that you, ddawkins, think that you are smarter than everyone. Your posts drip of sarcasm, arrogance, smugness, and are very condescending. And I'll tell you again, you are not as smart as you think you are. On the bright note though, I enjoy reading your posts because they are intelligent and well-written.
However, calling me out because I was not "Christ like" is hilarious. You have been making fun of Christians for months---taking glee at reminding us how stupid we are daily. I call you a "moron" once, and I'm not Christ-like. You got me brother, I'm not. Hilarious.
"Atheists get their little feelers hurt too easily."---Billy Graham (again, just kidding---he didn't say that.)

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 20, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Zoso, you're claiming to be "christian", and behaving like you're not. Would "jesus" call someone a moron? Aren't you supposed to behave as he would? Be a hypocrite all you like, but don't get angry at me when I merely point it out! Perhaps a little "prayer" would enable you to "heal". *LMAO*

Posted by teh_freaky on August 20, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It seems to me that some of the athiests here are just as blindly zealous as the uber-conservative Christians.

It would be nice if you would extend the same grace to Christians as you expect them to extend to you.

Posted by zoso on August 20, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So I am not a Christian because I called you a moron? Wow, that's a pretty high standard. Any Christian who has ever met you wouldn't stand a chance against that criteria. And as Jarhead so succinctly put it, it's not an insult if it is true. Yep, I am a hypocrite. But I guess that since you only have to answer to yourself then it's okay for you to call me stupid one hundred different ways over the past several months?
But, I'm not angry at you because you are an atheist. I don't know you and what factors in your life led you to this position. As I stated before, I could care less what you believe or don't believe.
I just want you to answer my question. Which is, in case you forgot, why does I guy like you---who obviously has it together---spend so much time on the ARN site ridiculing Christians? Goodness gracious, journalists who are getting paid by the word don't write as much on any subject as you have about this one. Do you really believe that you will change any of our (the simple sheeple folk) minds? Of course you don't.
I respect your opinion (beliefs) until you start insulting me about mine.

Posted by zoso on August 20, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh and "*LMAO*", are you a 13 year old girl?

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 21, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"So I am not a Christian because I called you a moron?"
Would your "jesus" do that?

"Yep, I am a hypocrite"
Of course you are. Stevie Wonder could see that.

"why does I guy like you---who obviously has it together---spend so much time on the ARN site ridiculing Christians?"
I only ridicule the zealots and hypocrites. Must have struck a nerve or two for you, eh?

"are you a 13 year old girl?"
*yawn*...is that really the best you can do?

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 21, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DD71, If you recall, I was NEVER an atheist. I once considered myself agnostic as I could neither prove nor disprove the existence of a supreme entity. Through study, experience and faith, I've come to believe in his/her/its existence.

And, in the interest of having a fair & balanced discussion, atheists have had their share of mass murdering zealots as well:
Kim Jong-il
Slobodan Milosevic
Josef Stalin
Saloth Sar (Pol Pot)

To name a few of the more notorious.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 21, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I dunno, Voodoo...you shared a lot of the same views I did, and did make the statement about being a catholic until reaching the age of reason. Sounds less agnostic and more atheist to my own ear. But hey, you say tomato, I say let's have a beer and watch some football.

Very true, there have been some whacko atheists, including the more benign but still ultimately stupid O'Hair and Newdow. The major difference is, the vast majority of atheists know who those people are, and disavow their actions. The vast majority of true "believers" hear the name Torquemada and say, "Is that a new Mexican restaurant?"

To be fair and balanced, however, we should turn to Fox News for commentary.

I almost typed that with a straight face.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 21, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Bill O'Reilly for president! That's right; I said it! Anyway, you and I have always defied being painted with any type of general brush so, it doesn't surprise me at all that our view were similar.

And let's face it. Even though I attend mass, some catholic tenets are just plain irrational, poorly thought out and/or antiquated. Once you reach the age where you begin to question, you cannot help but see that. However, you can't let a few bad apples sour you on the entire group. John Paul II was a great Pope. Benedict well, let's just say I'd like to chat with him about a few things.

However, they BOTH and all the Cardinals and Bishops beneath them, failed MISERABLY at the job of protecting the church from people that had no business becoming priests. Some things you just do not sweep under the rug; you bite the bullet and you fix it swiftly, decisively and in the light of full disclosure.

Posted by JarHead on August 21, 2008 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Atheism had nothing at all to do with the reasons Kim Jong-il, Slobodan Milosevic, Josef Stalin, Saloth Sar (Pol Pot) were evil.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 21, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JarHead,

Who said it did? DD71 put forth a point that Christian zealots and Islamic zealots (and religious zealots in general) had killed lots of innocent people. I merely put forth the counterpoint that atheist zealot mass murderers existed throughout history as well.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 21, 2008 at 3:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And actually, if you research Stalin's history and socio-political views, his atheism was KEY to his persecution and execution of religious(Christian and otherwise)folks. He stated that atheism was key to the very survival of Communism.

Same goes for Milosevic. He killed thousands for no other reason than they were Muslim. I submit to you that one can argue that they were killed for their Islamic beliefs vis-a-vis their being Muslim.

Posted by wildturkey on August 21, 2008 at 5:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Many an atrocity has been committed in the name of Religion around the globe in the history of the Earth.

Posted by ddawkins71 on August 21, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Voodoo, I've long said the fastest way to fix the priestly sex scandal problem is to let 'em get married. Maybe the Pope's post hole-digger hat's too tight to let him see reason?

Posted by JarHead on August 21, 2008 at 5:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you research Stalin's history, you find he attended a Russian orthodox seminary for about five years. Reading his speeches and things he wrote, show him to use a very dogmatic, declamatory and repetitive style with liturgical overtones in his thinking, speaking and writing. Atheism was but a minor theme for the monsters mentioned above and certainly not their root. They could have been just as bloody had they been Catholic, Baptist or Church of Christ. It was their bloodthirsty desire for unquestioned dominion that drove them, not an absence of belief in a supernatural sky buddy.

Posted by VoodooChylde on August 21, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JH, I submit to you that the same bloodthirsty lust for power and subjugation of the masses and voices of dissent was behind the Crusades and Salem witch hunts. The name of Christ was a convenient excuse for silencing the voices against your tyranny.

As history shows us, The Church was the Power behind the throne in Europe and even in ancient Rome. Who crucified the man Jesus Christ? The Roman Empire. Who became The Church? Roman Catholic church, direct descendants of.....the Roman Empire. Hmmm. Kill the rabble-rouser, then claim to be the TRUE bastion of his teachings. My, aren't we versatile?

The most expedient way to subjugate a people is to control their info and modulate their fears.

That's why I'm learning Aramaic. I want to read the original documents for myself. I find it hard to trust a translation authorized by a King.

Which is also why I said earlier, I believe in God; I watch religions like a hawk and with great scrutiny.

As the old saying goes; "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

Posted by zoso on August 21, 2008 at 8:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ddawkins, I have never met a righteous atheist until now---please pray for me.
And no Jesus wouldn't call you a moron, but he'd probably think it.
Thank you, by the way, for finally answering my question. I KNEW that you posted day after day to simply ridicule Christians, thanks for admitting to it. We are so beneath you.
My father used to say that if you played with chicken 'poop', then you would get it on your hands. Well, it's time for me to wash up and move on. Make fun of us "sheeple" until your little hate-filled heart is content. I am sorry if I offended you, cupcake.

Posted by Ghostrider71 on August 21, 2008 at 8:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, for my two cents. You cannot make the unbelievers believe, because they will not relinquish their reason and thought processes enough to allow for it. And, as it is written, "Man's wisdom is such foolishness to God.." And, regarding Jesus and namecalling, well.. Jesus referred to many of the Jewish leaders as vipers. Now, if I had to be called a name, I think I prefer moron, due to its ignorance implication. A viper is a cunning, calculating creature, and its context is clear. You know what you're doing, and doing it purposely.
Ain't free will a female dog?

Posted by dalai-llama on August 21, 2008 at 10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...they will not relinquish their reason and thought processes..."

Uhhhh, dude...

when your argument boils down to "they don't believe what I do because they think too much," it might be time to reconsider your approach.

Posted by Ghostrider71 on August 21, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Take a quote from George Washington, "You cannot govern a nation without God, and the Bible"

And, further more, intelligent discourse doesn't begin with "uhhh, dude.."

The quoted argument made, was, be all evidence, above your paygrade. Did you not catch the verse quoted as saying "Man's wisdom is such foolishness to God"?

Posted by pcdrs on August 21, 2008 at 11:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wasn't Hitler a practicing Catholic? He was doing his version of ridding the world of riff-raff and raising the status of the white race. To be a christian as practiced these days one must be judgmental and act on the focus of your judgement. That judgement has been flowing on this forum.

Belief in god is simply faith, cannot be proven since the record is by ancient men that wrote thier faith. They worshiped woman before the Jewish god arrived, seems the men were feeling left out and felt the need to dominate the women.

Some have faith and others don't, those with faith want to share with others. I am amazed at the needs of those with faith, I know 2 couples that bought tickets and went to San Antonio to listen to Joel Osteen. I thought that was a little much since they were Methodist but then again not my business, but I guess everyone is a little judgmental.

Posted by JarHead on August 22, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying.

Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

Posted by Reagan_Bush08 on August 22, 2008 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Atheism: A non-prophet organization.

Posted by dalai-llama on August 22, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Take a quote from George Washington, "You cannot govern a nation without God, and the Bible"

I prefer that one quote from the Constitution that's all, like, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

"And, further more, intelligent discourse doesn't begin with 'uhhh, dude..' "

I do render you my most humble apologies, good sir. My use of an informal tone was merely an attempt to soften my dismissal of your ill-founded contention. I was hoping that the gentle touch of levity might mask the contempt with which I view your suggestion that simply aba